Posted on 06/16/2003 8:41:08 PM PDT by Salvation
So which version of the Bible do you use and why, and how is it accurate where it reads differently from other Bibles, and why does it omit books like Ecclesiasticus and 2 Maccabees and Tobit which are in my Bible and all the Bibles that were published from AD 400 when the first Bibles were put together up to AD 1800, and in all Catholic and Orthodox Bibles since then?
Why can't the Jehovah's Witnesses legitimately claim "God preserved His word" in their mutilated version? Who set you up to judge between all of them?
Tell me which version is right here at Genesis 5.32:
After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth. (NIV)
And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (KJV, NASB)
So did Noah father all his children when he was 500 years old, or after? Which Bible is right?
It takes faith to accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.
Where can you find this Protestant formulation in the Bible? Where is the warrant for your altar calls? Where did Jesus say you must "accept" him?
He simply says trust in me not in a man made system of do's and don'ts.
Where? Enquiring minds want to know.
Not what I said. Go and re-read it again.
There is nothing wrong with calling the faithful of the Church "saints" in the sense that they are part of Holy Church, and aspire to live life so as to become a saint.
Paul is describing the believers as saints, but the term is not being used in the same way as we use Saint to describe the blessed in heaven. Both uses are legitimate, and both occur in the Bible. That doesn't mean that all members of the Church will become the Saints of heaven. That's a species of universalism.
Yep, once again tradition trumps Scripture, sadly. We both agree there are saints in heaven. What you ignore is that there are saints living now and that saint and believer are often used interchageably.
I'm not ignoring it at all. You are skimming right over where I said exactly that. But calling a believer a saint doesn't exclude the word from having a different meaning regarding those in heaven. And it has nothing to do with tradition trumping scripture. If it makes it easier for you to understand, we could stick with discussing things using the terms of the early Christians - saints denoting the believers, and Blessed denoting those believers united to God in heaven. The meaning is the same as what I am using.
Furthermore the canonization of saints with attesting miracles has no biblical foundation and is at odds with the New testament.
News to me. Where does it read "thou shalt not canonize"?
The cultus of the saints and martyrs and their relics can be found in the very earliest post-Biblical documents (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, etc.)
And so we afterwards took up his bones which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place; where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy, and to celebrate the birth-day of his martyrdom for the commemoration of those that have already fought in the contest, and for the training and preparation of those that shall do so hereafter. (Martyrdom of Polycarp, 18.2-3)
Amazing how the Church fell immediately into heresy after circa AD 100, according to the Protestant Fairytale, and all men wallowed in ignorance and error until 'noble' Luther and Calvin finally came 1400 years later to pull back the veil and enlighten us. Amazing that Christ would forsake his Church in this way after he promised to be with us always.
Can we sin in the womb?
Don't you believe in Original Sin? Can a child have Original Sin and also be filled with the Holy Ghost? Obviously not.
Are you disingenuously claiming that what is written regarding John the Baptist and Jeremiah the Prophet does not concern their whole lives, but only their life up to the first time they sinned? That's quite a stretch!
"... and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1.15) That certainly seems to say that John will always be filled with the Holy Ghost, and that this filling will commence while he is in the womb.
Lets go back to basics. Did Jeremiah or John the Baptist ever sin? I say no, based on the texts cited. If God gave them the grace to avoid all sin, why wouldn't he also give it to Mary?
Protestants should learn the humility of the Ethiopian, and come to understand that the reader of the Bible cannot learn the faith there, but must already have the faith, because faith does not come from reading. "Faith then cometh by hearing." (Romans 10.17) Nor is everything of faith in the Bible. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2.15) When you reject the unwritten traditions handed down by the Church, you reject part of God's revelation. This rejection makes it extremely difficult to understand the Bible, and accounts for the mass confusion between the thousands of Protestant sects, and their universal state of error with respect to their holding of the entirety of the Catholic Faith. What a sorry state to be in!
And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaias the prophet. And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. (Acts 8.28-31)
YOPIOS? How many of your fellow FR Catholics will buy this one? Ping a few, might be interesting.
Loyalist and Salvation, please send out the pings.
Dr Steve:
I am filled with the Holy Ghost when I exit the confessional. Of St. John the Baptist it was said "and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." My status as a Temple of the Holy Ghost is temporary, unless I can manage to sin no more, which is difficult, because it does not appear that God has yet granted me such a grace. The description of St. John the Baptist's status implies a permanent condition because of a special grace of God, where he is "filled with the Holy Ghost" for his whole life (the unstated but implict truth), "even from his mother's womb."
Again, what is the point of God sancifying an unborn child in the womb if he is to later become a actual sinner like the rest of us? No one would be aware of this special grace unless it was manifested in the rest of his life.
Regarding St. John the Baptist, the Church traditionally has held that he is the second greatest of the saints, after Blessed Mary. He is thus accorded feasts of his Nativity (June 24), Beheading(August 29). He is listed after Blessed Mary and St. Michael in the Confiteor of the Mass, after Blessed Mary in the Suscipa Sancta Trinitas in the Offertory, and first in the list of Martyrs in the Nobis quoque peaccatoribus in the Canon.
You have not demonstrated that being filled with the Spirit results in ongoing and permanent sinlessness. Nevetheless, here are some more for your list to elevate to permanent sinless status.
I don't think I will ever demonstrate it to your satisfaction, unless you become a Catholic. Its enough for me that the Church teaches it, and the Bible gives evidence in support of this teaching. Turning the tables, can you prove St. John the Baptist sinned?
Acts 2:4 A group of disciples on Pentecost
The Church has traditionally held that the Holy Apostles were sinless (and infallible in their teaching) from the time they were filled with the Holy Ghost on Pentecost.
Acts 9:16, 13:9 Paul
And Holy Church has held similarly regarding Blessed Paul from the time of his conversion.
As I said above, you I don't think you can prove these people did sin from the Bible. Its just as reasonable, based on Biblical evidence alone, to believe that God's sanctification was a permanent action in them.
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. (James 5.15-16)
Do you believe the Church contains sinners, as the Apostle James cleary says? How can sinners be anything other than saints by anticipation? They certainly cannot be termed holy by any other definition. One is only holy if he is without sin.
I think Novus Church is one that accepts your Discover card when the offering is taken.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.