Posted on 06/16/2003 8:41:08 PM PDT by Salvation
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Time to study!!
Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."
The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angels visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."
Mary is NOT equal to God, nor do catholics suggest she should be viewed as such.
In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
Having taken four years of greek I find the argument based upon the perfect passive participle unconvincing... 2 + 2 = 13
So, you are blasphemously claiming Mary did not do the will of the Father most perfectly?
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Luke 1.28)And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1.38)
Your words show your true colors - that of a fellow-traveller with evil, blasphemous, disgraceful Nestorian heretics. Your pride in your erroneous opinions is blinding you to the clear truths of Divine Revelation. Dare to see the greatness of the Mother of our Great God and Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ in her absolute and total fidelity to God, revealed in Holy Scripture, which you so cavilierly defame. You are behaving as one of those blessed Peter the apostle spoke of when he warned "... the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Peter 3.16). You Protestants cannot manage to accept even the clear words of Holy Scripture, which you claim so fervently to reverence and accept. Why is this? Why do you deny the clear meaning of God's Word? What posseses you to need to defame the Mother of God?
And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. And she entered into the house of Zachary and saluted Elizabeth. And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name. (Luke 1.39-49)
I dare say you probably give more reverence to your own mother, who like the mother's of everyone else, is but nothing compared to the Mother of God. Is your mother called "blessed among women" by "all generations"?
From a Protestand point of view---Three things that God is that humans aren't...
1) Omnipresent - Everywhere at once. Can Mary hear and answer prayers from all Catholics, all over the world at once? Of course. A Godlike power!
2) Omniscient - All knowing. Does Mary goof up. Answer prayers incorrectly. You pray for healing, she misunderstands and you get herring? Never!! A Godlike power!
3) Omnipotent - All powerful. Can Mary desire to answer your prayer, but be unable? She lacks the authority to answer and refers you to God for an answer? Never!! A Godlike power.
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Genesis 3.15)
The Protestant translation having "he shall" and "his heel" does not change the meaning or import of the first phrase.
God certianly wasn't placing enmity between the Devil and Eve, since the reference is also to the seed of the Devil and the seed of the woman, Mary, which is Jesus Christ.
If Mary was under sin, even Original Sin, this first messianic prophecy would be voided, since sin puts us at enmity to God and but in conformance to the Devil.
Lastly, as far as Luke 1:28 and Acts 6:8 goes, I don't follow your argument, since different Greek words are being used.
These are copied off of a Greek New Testament site.
1:28 kai eiselqwn pros authn eipen caire kecaritwmenh o kurios meta sou
6:8 stefanos de plhrhs caritos kai dunamews epoiei terata kai shmeia megala en tw law
Its perectly clear to me that kecharitomene and charitos are two different words (and Strong goes so far as to use pistos here, not charitos), though of the same root, so that Stephen's condition is not comparable to Mary's. Kecharitomene is not used anywhere else in scripture, to the best of my knowledge. The closest useage is another form of the verb in Ephesians 1.6, echaritosen. Perhaps you can explicate your view further, though.
A fairly good explanation of the Catholic position is found here. The readers of this thread may judge it for themselves.
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