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Blinded by the Light of the East?
Envoy Magazine ^ | 06/14/2003 | class of 1978

Posted on 06/14/2003 3:01:28 PM PDT by Class of 78

[Catholic author Patrick Madrid, Publisher of Envoy Magazine, writes:]

In a recent issue of San Diego News Notes there appeared an interview with Paul O'Callaghan, a former cradle Catholic who abandonded the Church to become an Orthodox priest.

I found his rationale for leaving the Church in an attempt to find Tradition to be theologically naive. His sometimes inaccurate perceptions about the Catholic Church and its teachings were also problematic. But the biggest dissapointment was his distorted understanding of how the early Church viewed the function and authority of the Bishop of Rome:

"The Orthodox view the role of the bishop of Rome as being 'first among equals' of all the bishops of the Church. In this sense, Rome is to play a special role in upholding the apostolic tradition. Rome also functioned in the early Church as a final 'court of appeal' in disputes, as she was the primatial See. When the pope exalted himself and claimed, 'I am tradition,' as opposed to being responsible for upholding tradition, this broke with tradition and eventually shattered the unity of the Church. When the papacy claimed automatic divine approbation for its dogmatic pronouncements, it usurped the prerogative of the whole body of Christ, and subverted the ecclesiology of communion. It is impossible for the modern papacy to be reconciled with Orthodoxy, a point that many Roman Catholics have difficulty understanding."

That's standard rhetoric from Orthodox apologists, which one would expect, but this fanciful notion of a "primus inter pares" model of the papacy in the early Church simply doesn't square with the historical evidence to the contrary. True, the pope was always considered the one to whom a "final appeal" would be made, but he was also recognized -- East and West -- as considerably more than that.

For examples of such evidence, see Russell Shaw's Papal Primacy in the Third Millennium, or J. Michael Miller's The Shepherd and the Rock, Steve Ray's Upon This Rock, or Jesus, Peter and the Keys by Dave Hess et al., or my books Why Is That in Tradition? and Pope Fiction. In them you'll get copious, detailed examples of patristic statements -- many from the Eastern Fathers -- that utterly disprove Fr. O'Callaghan's theory.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; catholicism; earlychurch; envoymagazine; orthodox; orthodoxy; papacy; patrickmadrid; patristics; pope; religion
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1 posted on 06/14/2003 3:01:28 PM PDT by Class of 78
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To: Class of 78
The Orthodox look at the history of the See of Constantinople and its relationship with the national orthodox churches and read that into the evidence about the relationship between Rome and the other sees. Like all historical anaologies, there is some truth in it, but it is not necessarily THE truth. Leaving aside the question of whether Peter was "bishop" of Rome, the Church of Rome was by, say. 130, a magnet for Christians. Why else would the Pontian heretic Marcion begin his career in that city, except that, like New York in the USA, Rome was the place to go if you wanted to make an impact?
2 posted on 06/14/2003 3:44:09 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Class of 78
What is accurate about Callaghan's statement is how it relates to the present pope. Here is what he said: "When the pope exalted himself and claimed, 'I am tradition,' as opposed to being responsible for upholding tradition, this broke with tradition and eventually shattered the unity of the Church."

This is an accurate summary of the current situation in the Church. As Robert Sungenis has pointed out, Karol Wojtlya two years before he became pope, was already siding with those who broke with tradition: "The Church of our day has beecome particularly conscious of this truth; and it was in the light of this truth that the Church succeeded, during the Second Vatican Council, in REDEFINING HER OWN NATURE."
(Sign of Contradiction, p. 17.)

Sungenis cites many such passages indicating that this Pontiff sides with modernists in the current revolution. These are the same people who urge us to get behind the Pope, that it is HE who defines tradition and decides what it is--which is nonsense, since tradition has always been something unchanging--PROTECTED by the papacy, not defined by it. It is no wonder the Church has been torn asunder under this Pontiff and that cradle Catholics like Callaghan are looking around for stability outside the conciliar Church. Who can blame them?
3 posted on 06/14/2003 3:55:56 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Class of 78; NYer
**I found his rationale for leaving the Church in an attempt to find Tradition to be theologically naive. His sometimes inaccurate perceptions about the Catholic Church and its teachings were also problematic. But the biggest dissapointment was his distorted understanding of how the early Church viewed the function and authority of the Bishop of Rome:**

Very interesting. Happens where?
4 posted on 06/14/2003 4:36:25 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Class of 78; ultima ratio; katnip; Destro; FormerLib; Chancellor Palpatine; The_Reader_David
No Punches Pulled A Catholic-Orthodox Dialogue
By Stan Espedal

I met Father Paul O'Callaghan in September 1988 when I was still a Lutheran pastor. We became close friends. Father Paul received me into the Orthodox church in July, 1991. (He was pastor of St. George's Orthodox church in City Heights for nine years.)

Having been brought up as a Roman Catholic, he left Catholicism for the reasons he states below. I, having had no religious commitment as a child, persevering in the search for truth, found Eastern Orthodoxy to be a stepping stone to the fullness of truth in the Catholic faith. So we were like ships passing.

Father Paul is a speaker and writer. He has recently authored a book, The Feast Of Friendship (Eighth Day Books, 2002).

I agree with Father Paul regarding the Novus Ordo Mass and the mentality which spawned it and keeps it going. He is wrong, though, in seeing this mentality as "consistent with the nature of Catholicism." It is an aberration.

I take exception to the statement that the real difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the doctrine of grace. The Byzantine and Latin doctrines on grace are complementary, not contradictory. This complementarity is what Pope John Paul meant by the Church "breathing with both lungs." The real difference remains our being subject to the universal primacy of the Roman Pontiff, whom the Orthodox view as an oppressive, alien power.

Father Paul, would you summarize the essential theme of your book, Feast of Friendship?

In our modern Western cultural setting, we often take friendships for granted and underestimate their significance in our lives. In actuality, friendship is one of the most important forms of love that we experience. Friendship is a communion of persons in love and freedom, which is precisely the nature of God. Christian friendships in particular foster our moral development and growth into the divine likeness. They also are a tremendous source of creativity, and facilitate the contemplation of the Good, the True and the Beautiful. Finally, friendships prefigure the Feast that is the everlasting kingdom of God.

How did you come to see the need for this special study?

It began in several different ways. My first ideas really had to do with the unique situation of being a parish priest. During their training, priests are often warned about the dangers of friendships with parishioners. I took this advice seriously, but I was never able to abide by it. Eventually, while recognizing its practicality, I came to see this stipulation as dehumanizing. I had made great friends in my parishes and I treasured them. Beyond that, I saw that I actually conducted much of my ministry in the mode of friendship. What justified this?

The second strand derived from my personal experiences with good friendships. Certain phenomena seemed extraordinary to me. I did not have the tools to interpret or understand those experiences. So friendship became an area of research for me.

Lastly, I saw the deep theological implications of Christian friendship. I was not aware of any attempt to expound a theology of friendship, and saw how the Orthodox tradition offered the categories for interpreting friendship theologically. I thought that I could give a theological account of friendship in a way that had not been done before. So I went to work and tried to integrate these themes cohesively.

What further work in this field would you like to see done?

I think more could be done in delineating a psychology of friendship. My book discusses some themes, but I am a layman in this regard, and I think those with better training could provide more substantial and scholarly accounts.

Please tell us about your upbringing as a Roman Catholic. What was your family life like, parochial school education, etc?

It was a completely Catholic life. We hardly knew anyone who wasn't Catholic. There was not one case of divorce among the parents of the friends I grew up with. Abstinence on Fridays, the rosary, regular attendance at Mass and Benediction, novenas, 40 hours devotions, spiritual bouquets -- all these were typical features of my family's life. My grandfather attended Mass every day. Other than being Irish Catholics, we were typical California suburbanites of the late '50s and '60s. It was an interesting time and place to grow up. I attended parochial school from second grade through high school. About 1966 or so we began seeing the new breed of priests and nuns, who were young, played folk guitar and things like that. Prior to that, our Catholicism was of the strict Tridentine variety. By the early seventies, many of the priests and nuns that had taught us were abandoning their vows and leaving religious life. It was like an epidemic. The stable Catholic world we had know was unraveling in near-complete cynicism.

Were you taught the Catholic vision of the Church as the ecclesiastical monarchy established by Jesus Christ, visibly headed by the successor of Peter?

Of course. "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church" was drilled into our heads. We were taught, and became utterly convinced, that the Roman Catholic Church was the one true Church. As a child, I couldn't understand why that wasn't obvious to everyone.

What transpired, externally and internally, to lead you away from the perception that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ?

It was the Novus Ordo -- the "New Mass." It is important to understand that the Novus Ordo was much more than the revised rite of the Mass. It is much more comprehensive than that. It was the attempt to impose an utterly new way of being Catholic. Although the people did not call for it, many clergy were eager to trash tradition. Images were hauled out of churches, altar rails torn out, the mode of receiving communion altered, the Friday fast abrogated, fasting for Communion minimalized, Latin abandoned, the minor orders abolished, the altar replaced by a table, prayer facing east eliminated, and recently female acolytes introduced. Many of these represented radical alterations of universal Christian tradition. The entire ethos of Catholicism as we had known it was phased out of existence. It was replaced by new Catholicism that scholars figured would be more palatable to "modern man." Every attempt was made to replace the sense of the sacred, the transcendent, and the mystical with an atmosphere of casual informality.

The ambience of the Novus Ordo is chatty, relaxed, and utterly banal. It does not cultivate reverence for a glorious God, but a good feeling about being human in a contrived "community." I felt the artificiality of the new rite immediately. It was apparent that it was not generated by the living consciousness of the Church, but was a creation of committees. It lacked beauty, depth, and spirituality. The new church buildings it spawned were remarkable only for their ugliness and lack of inspiration. Eventually I found I could no longer stand the artificiality and banality of Novus Ordo Catholicism. I began to look elsewhere.

What led you to embrace Eastern Orthodoxy?

At first I felt that the Novus Ordo was some kind of aberration within Roman Catholicism. As time went on, I began to understand that it is entirely consistent with the very nature of Roman Catholicism. Ever since the schism with the Eastern Patriarchates, Rome has pursued a course of innovation with regard to the Tradition based on rational analysis and deduction. The Novus Ordo was but the most recent example. Finally, I came to the conclusion that wherever Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism differed, Orthodoxy had preserved the original tradition of the undivided Church, and Roman Catholicism had strayed from it.

Of course, because of my background, converting to Orthodoxy was difficult. It took a couple of years for me to work through it. In the end, I felt I would be more in communion with my fathers worshipping as an Orthodox Christian than I would be as a Novus Ordo Catholic.

What education did you have in your preparation for priesthood?

I received a Bachelor of Arts in Religious Studies from California State University, Chico, in 1977, and a Master of Divinity from Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology in Brookline, MA in 1980.

How long were you pastor at St. George, San Diego?

I was pastor of St. George Orthodox Church in San Diego for nine years -- January 1, 1984 to January 1, 1993.

What special memories do you have of San Diego and your ministry at St.George?

My strongest memory of San Diego and St. George is actually not a memory, but more of a feeling, so to speak. Although I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, after a couple of years of living in San Diego, it really became home to me. I have lived in Los Angeles, Boston, Northern California, and here in Wichita, Kansas. But I refer to San Diego in Rush Limbaugh's terms as "my adopted hometown." It would be a joy to return to live in San Diego again. I loved it there.

The congregation of St. George grew incredibly diverse during my years of ministry. It included a core of Arab-Americans born of Lebanese/Syrian background, immigrant families from Palestine and Jordan, Egyptians and Ethiopians, as well as Anglo-Americans of all varieties. Holding everybody together was challenging, but everyone was friendly and hospitable.

How many converts to Orthodoxy at St. George did you bring in?

Honestly, I really can't remember. I didn't ever count them when I was there. They just became a part of the parish family like everybody else.

How many of these were Catholics? How many Protestants (including Episcopalians)?

Again, for the reasons stated above, I really can't say for sure. The majority were certainly Protestant. I can't specifically remember receiving anyone who was Roman Catholic, but some of them might have been.

When Protestants converted, what did they say drew them to Eastern Orthodoxy?

Like most converts to Orthodoxy, they were on the search for the "true Church." They were looking for doctrinal, liturgical, and moral stability in faithfulness to biblical standards. They perceived their Protestant denominations to be adrift in one or more of those areas. Orthodoxy represented continuity and fidelity to the apostolic tradition for them.

What did they tell you induced them to become Orthodox and not Catholic?

Many Protestants have a visceral reaction to anything Roman Catholic. I have been told by a number of them that they would never consider becoming Roman Catholic. The papacy is definitely a stumbling block to those who have been reared in the Protestant ethos. They cannot understand Roman Catholic ecclesiology, and in some cases, are viscerally hostile to Catholic doctrine in general -- without understanding it. So they looked first at Orthodoxy without even considering Catholicism in many cases. Others perceived Roman Catholicism to be adrift in the same way Protestant churches are. They understood that Western Christianity is more of a piece than differentiated, in that both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are dominated by a rationalistic approach to faith. So for them, Roman Catholicism could not offer a solution.

What relations, good or bad, did you have with Catholics in San Diego,including the Catholic Eastern Rites?

I didn't have much contact with Roman Catholics during my tenure in San Diego. When a Maronite mission was started there, somehow I ended up being in contact with the priest, Father Dennis, who was a liturgical scholar from Notre Dame. We got together socially a few times, and it was very nice. The only problem I had was with people who would bounce back and forth between our parish and the Maronite mission. This was not the fault of San Diego Catholics, but of some of our own people. So the scant relations I had were good ones.

Would you agree with the view that the only real difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism is the papacy, all other differences being either derivative or fabricated? If not, why?

No. The real difference is in what each tradition teaches about grace. Orthodoxy teaches that grace is the uncreated energy of God poured forth on man. Roman Catholicism teaches that grace is created -- God causes certain effects in the mind and soul of man. This in turn, affects what each tradition means by theology. For Orthodoxy, theology is begotten in the divine illumination of the soul -- man is permeated by the uncreated grace of God and speaks forth from that. In Roman Catholicism, theology is a matter of discursive reasoning about propositions derived from either natural or revealed sources. The teachings regarding the papacy and all of the other uniquely Roman Catholic dogmas have their source in this. Thus in spirit and in form they are alien to Orthodoxy.

Is there any sense in which you, as an Orthodox, would assent to the universal government; universal fatherhood if you will, of the Roman Pontiff?

No. The Orthodox view the role of the bishop of Rome as being "first among equals" of all the bishops of the Church. In this sense, Rome is to play a special role in upholding the apostolic tradition. Rome also functioned in the early Church as a final "court of appeal" in disputes, as she was the primatial See. When the pope exalted himself and claimed, "I am tradition," as opposed to being responsible for upholding tradition, this broke with tradition and eventually shattered the unity of the Church. When the papacy claimed automatic divine approbation for its dogmatic pronouncements, it usurped the prerogative of the whole body of Christ, and subverted the ecclesiology of communion. It is impossible for the modern papacy to be reconciled with Orthodoxy, a point that many Roman Catholics have difficulty understanding.

The Russian theologian Vladimir Soloviev wrote to his fellow Eastern Orthodox Christians, "We must recognize ourselves for what we are in reality, an organic part of the great body of Christendom, and affirm our intimate solidarity with our western brethren who possess the central organ (i.e. the papacy) which we lack. This (is a necessary) moral act of justice and charity." Would you comment, from your present perspective, on this?

I don't think many Orthodox would agree with Soloviev being called a "theologian." His Orthodoxy is questionable. Calling him a "Russian religious thinker" would be more accurate, as one would describe Berdayev, for instance. It is indeed morally imperative to recognize what unites Orthodox and Roman Catholics: faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Trinity, the sacraments, the veneration of the Virgin, and so on. Certainly what unites us is greater than what divides us. But is also a "necessary moral act" to be honest about what divides us -- why, in fact, we are not in communion.

The centralized monarchial administration of the papal system definitely has pragmatic efficiencies that are lacking in the Orthodox world. Orthodoxy is often characterized by disorganization and lack of inter-cooperation. In Roman Catholicism, the tight system of worldwide government produces an imposing institutional unity. Plus, the pope as a figurehead plays very well in the modern media environment, as John Paul II has shown so effectively.

However impressive the institutional unity of the Roman Catholic Church may be, there is far more unity in the Orthodox Church in matters of faith, morality, and liturgical life. "Dissenting theologians" are unknown. There is a spiritual unity among the Orthodox that wells up from within the life of Holy Tradition that is incomprehensible to Catholics who relate to the pope and bishops as external authorities, to whom they either assent or dissent.

What do you think of Pope John Paul II's statement that the Church must breathe with both her lungs, eastern and western?

The Church must breathe with the breath of God, that is, the Holy Spirit. This is what is essential to her very being. As long as the Church lives in the Holy Spirit, divine and uncreated grace is active in her, and she produces God-bearing saints. There is no question of East and West, but only the "theanthropic" organism that is the body of Christ. If the papacy will humble itself before Christ, the true head of the Church, and return to the confession of Orthodoxy, then the life-giving Spirit will breathe freely in the churches of the West again. This will result in deliverance from the spirit of rationalism and a flowering of traditional Christian holiness in them.

5 posted on 06/14/2003 5:35:16 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Class of 78
"The Orthodox view the role of the bishop of Rome as being 'first among equals' of all the bishops of the Church.

And he was correct. There were five patriarchs...and the patriarch of Rome was a usurper. There are no Scriptures assigning the bishop of Rome to his current position.

Matthew 16:18-19 - When Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Simon Peter he used two different words in Greek to refer to the building of the church. He called Peter a [petros] - a stone; Jesus referred to Himsef as [petra] - a large rock outcropping or hugh stone. It is as if Jesus called himseld Half Dome in Yosemite Park, and Peter was a rock at the base of the cliff. Jesus was saying that He was going to build the Church upon Himself, not Peter...a bad interpretation perpetuated by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries!

6 posted on 06/14/2003 5:46:24 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: ultima ratio; MarMema; RobbyS; Class of 78; Salvation; LiteKeeper
To the Orthodox--the 7 ecumenical councils describe Christianity..the Pope chose to bring upon his office the authority of an ecumenical council. By what authority did the Pope add in the filioque? The Papacy was supposed to preserve what the Apostolic Bishops in the Ecumenical councils had decided after much debate, arguments and praying as a body. That is all Orthodoxy is--upholding the findings of the ecumenical councils. If any person of authority felt that a point of one of the councils were wrong then the another calling of the council of Apostolic Bishops need be called--the new point discussed and then voted on. That is the avenue of change for Christian dogma and tradition. The Pope, functioning like the US Supreme Court does not make law but makes decision based on the law.

The Papacy has no right to change or add on or do anything to change that which was already decided by itself. That is the origin of the schisim and why the Latin Catholics were KICKED out of Orthodoxy (what the Pope did was no different than what Luther did).

Christianity as we can see was not an authoriatrian thing. It had its traditions in a democratic/republican form to decide it's fate. It had no charsimatic prophet to lead it like a dictator. The Ecclessia, through her Apostolic designated leaders would collectively come to conclusions with the Holy Spirit guiding the vote.

Is this not just another version of Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" that also makes our democracy as succesful as it is, by allowing the majority to guide correct choices and policies as opposed to the command economy like religious authority of the Papacy?

7 posted on 06/14/2003 6:09:23 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: RobbyS
History has very little to do with our objection to the papacy. I think it is difficult for those outside the church to comprehend our experiental-formed committment to the concepts of sobornost and conciliarity.
Without them a church becomes simply an earthly institution more subject to temptations of power and ambition.

At any rate some good writings to help those outside the church better understand our views of authority, the Holy Trinity and the nature of Christian fellowship in Eastern Orthodoxy are available on my FR page -
"The Conciliar Nature of the Orthodox Church"
"An Introduction to the Eastern Christian Mind"

I highly recommend the Tolstoy story which I have posted on my page as well to those who are interested in the differences between eastern and western Christianity.

8 posted on 06/14/2003 6:54:47 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; Bellarmine; BlackElk; Canticle_of_Deborah; Dajjal; ..
PING
9 posted on 06/14/2003 7:02:40 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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To: katnip
Father Paul is a speaker and writer. He has recently authored a book, The Feast Of Friendship (Eighth Day Books, 2002).

I really like the title of this book! I am going to suggest it for our church bookstore. I think it will be something I will greatly enjoy reading and I am sure you can easily understand why I say this. :-)

10 posted on 06/14/2003 7:04:25 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: LiteKeeper
Matthew 16:18-19 - When Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Simon Peter he used two different words in Greek to refer to the building of the church. He called Peter a [petros] - a stone; Jesus referred to Himsef as [petra] - a large rock outcropping or hugh stone. It is as if Jesus called himseld Half Dome in Yosemite Park, and Peter was a rock at the base of the cliff. Jesus was saying that He was going to build the Church upon Himself, not Peter...a bad interpretation perpetuated by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries!

Incorrect. Jesus spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic the word rock is "kepha". The Greek masculine/feminine distinctions are irrelevant.

There are no Scriptures assigning the bishop of Rome to his current position.

Consider Isaiah 22:20-25. His oracle states there will be an abolition of the Old Testament high priests and the establishment of a new priesthood of the House of David. This priesthood is very specific.

On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim (means loyal to God), son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.......etc.

That sounds quite similar to a NT passage:

Matthew 16:18-19 I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock', and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Acts 15 Peter's final authority in matters regarding the Church is evidenced by "after Peter spoke, the assembly fell silent." The Apostles knew who had primacy.

11 posted on 06/14/2003 7:57:28 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: LiteKeeper
The Roman Emperors attempted to destroy Christianity for the first 250 years. In the first 200 years every Pope but one was martyred.

The Roman Emperor Decius (249-251 A.D.) made the following remark after he had executed Pope Fabian in 250 A.D., "I would far rather receive news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop of Rome."

The Roman Emperors knew who the head of the Church was.

12 posted on 06/14/2003 8:03:08 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Decius was attempting to destroy the Church by decapitating it, so he went after the bishops. On the face of it, the bishop of the capital of the empire had to be high on his list.
13 posted on 06/14/2003 8:13:25 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; LiteKeeper; MarMema
Deborah all you said is fine but that is not teh gripe of the Orthodox as far as I can tell. The Pope never had the authority to change or add on to dogma. That is not in his power. The Pope's position was that of an arbitrator but not a legislator. Is not teh foundation rock's purpose to prevent the structure from shifting? A rock implies an unchanging character. That the Pope chose to change centuries of Christian dogma on his own INVENTED authority meant that the Latins perverted Christian thinking.

It is only the collective church meeting as a body that can claim infalibility because it is guided by the Holy Spirit. An individual can't claim infalibility least of all the man seated on the throne of St. Peter since St. Peter himself failed Christ not one but thrice.

14 posted on 06/14/2003 8:19:28 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: RobbyS; Canticle_of_Deborah
All the Popes of Rome who were Saints pre schisim are as they were to the Orthodox. All the Saints of the West pre-schisim are Orthodox Saints and always have been--including St. Patrick. All the Popes of Rome pre-Schisim are remembered by the Orthodox in their prayers.
15 posted on 06/14/2003 8:29:48 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Your inaccurate statements show you're mistaken in your understanding of what -- in reality -- the Catholic Church (i.e. the original Christian Church, which major Orthodox Churches broke away from definitively in the 11th century) really teaches about the role of the Bishop of Rome. Contrary to your allegation, no pope "invented" dogma. You must not be keeping up with the current biblical and patristic responses from Catholics to that sort of discredited, stale Orthodox propaganda. Read "Pope Fiction," for example, or "The Shepherd and the Rock," or "Why Is That In Tradition," if you want irrefutible evidence from the early Church that your view is wrong.

The fact is, the Ecumenical Councils that occured after the sad 11th-century demise of the recalcitrant Eastern Churches who, through their schism from communion with the Church of Rome, separated themselves from the Church Christ established, were hardly "inventions." They were monuments to the living Holy Tradition that had been handed on, once and for all, by Christ and the Apostles. Madrid's books "Why Is that In Tradition" and "Pope Fiction," (both available from Amazon) easily disprove your pseudo-historical, pseudo-scriptural claptrap with solid, verifiable historical evidence.
16 posted on 06/14/2003 8:41:39 PM PDT by Class of 78
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To: LiteKeeper
Do you really think Jesus went out of his way to use Greek to a fellow Jew instead of Aramaic? This is unlikely. But in Aramaic, there is no distinction between Kepha and kepha. It was used for a proper name and to designate a rock, not a stone.
17 posted on 06/14/2003 8:51:24 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Class of 78
I can disprove your statement with one point-- Why did the Pope insert the filioque clause when it was never in the original as written and approved by all the Church.

What the Pope did then was become like Luther--inventing and adding on to the Church an idea which never was part of the church.

Someone did indeed break away from what Christianity is as defined by what the ecumenical councils said Christianity is. The Catholic Latins did--not the Orthodox and thus removed themselves from what the Church stands for. Tthe Orthodox did not leave the Church but rather threw out the heretical Latin Church.

Adding on to the 7 Ecumenical Councils pronouncements is a heresy by definition is it not?

18 posted on 06/14/2003 8:51:34 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: ultima ratio; LiteKeeper
It was never written in Aramaic.
19 posted on 06/14/2003 8:53:27 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
The truth is there were charges and counter-charges and each excommunicated the other. But the "filioque" dispute was a mere pretext for the split. East and west were split down the middle politically and culturally from the earliest days of the Empire. The Romans were pragmatic and legalistic, the Greeks were philosophic and mystical. These differences intensified as the first millenium wore on.
20 posted on 06/14/2003 8:59:39 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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