Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Do they?
Yes.
God's grace was sufficent, it was sufficent for either one to make a choice.
It is your assumption that it is God who is going to choose who is saved and who isn't.
No man will be in hell who did not choose to be there despite the grace of God (Rom.1:20,28, Psa.19)
God prevented Abimelech from sinning in ignorance (He was also protecting Sarah and the Messanic line).
However, once the truth was revealed Abimelech was told to make a decision and the wrong one would cost him his life and if thou restore her not, know thou that shall surely die and all that are thine
That verse seems to be more problematic for the Calvinists since, as Xzins has pointed out, it shows a unbeliever with 'integrity of heart' and also that God is communicating with a spiritually dead man (corpse like)and the man is speaking with God!
Beyond the fact that Ezekiel clearly states that every man is responsible for his own sins, and that no man can atone for the sins of another, there remains the fact that there were already multiple mechanisms in place for the forgiveness of sin. If you sin, you must repent and ask forgiveness. God says He will forgive. No need for the substitutionary sacrifice of a God-man.
Maybe we do worship two different Gods... My God forgives us when we stumble and repent. My God is just, and does not punish us infinitely for a finite sin.
Could I have your scriptural reference on that ?
I acknowledged my sin to thee,
and I did not hide my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD";
then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin. (Psalm 32:5)
The LORD is just in all his ways,
and kind in all his doings. (Psalm 145:17)
The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6)
See ange he does not even hear your prayer.
You really believe this? (shakes head) All the passages you cite make a good point, but you are not in a position to judge whether or not I am wicked, and whether or not God hears my prayers. How incredibly ironic that you should quote Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination".
If I may ask, is your mother Jewish?
Why in the world anyone would desert Christ and return to the old covenant of the Law, which was annulled, is beyond me.
How can an "everlasting covenant" be annulled? Is God a liar?
If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,
even his prayer is an abomination. (Proverbs 28:9)
Yes, and the Mormons have been doing a good job of winning converts, too. Something like a billion muslims out there. Truth is not determined by popular vote.
BTW, I haven't seen you answer my question as to how exactly Jesus is of the line of David. If I missed it, can you point me to the post?
So you are a Christian, and you think the Baal worshippers or pagans all over the earth, worship the same God you think you do? You got some heavy-duty Bible studying to do, better get offline and get started.
Question: did you even read my posts? Go back and show me, despite TWO disclaimers to the opposite, that I even once suggested that other world religions worship the same God as Christianity.
Second, I put forth the statement that throughout the centuries Christians have, by manipulating the iconography of Christ through deliberate omission of cultural and physical characteristics of the people of Palestine and introduction of their own cultural and physical characteristics, have certainly made Christ in their own image. So, you are descended from the Jews; what do you want, a medal? That wasn't my point. My point was that Jesus Christ most certainly did not have petite european features, lily white skin, blue eyes and flowing blond hair.
angelo: What did Paul mean when he said
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Romans 2:14-15)
Exactly. Everybody on Earth is given two lights of knowledge, the light of creation (Romans 1:21) and the light of conscience.(Romans 2:14, 15). If we were not given those two lights then I would agree on RnMomof7's usage of that particular passage in the sense that she is using it. But, in fact, all of humanity is given those lights; my point is that most who are given light either misunderstand it or corrupt it (even many Christians, if I can steer this back to the original article about Barna's research.)
However, like I said before, we all have a God sized hole in us and humanity has historically looked outward (upward) to find meaning and a way of filling that hole. They get it wrong (contrary to what Jesse thinks he reads in my posts) but there is a search nonetheless.
And this is where we can actually get excited about evangelism! Because the Truth has been revealed to us, we have a opportunity to share the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob with those who are searching (which, contrary to RnMomof7's misreading of Scripture, EVERYONE is searching!)
Your #533: I am?? (I think you have me mixed up with the Mormons .I do not remember ever saying that. But I think anything God decides is fair.
You have us mixed up with somebody else. God is fair, just, loving, kind, and merciful. And, yes, we are saved. Doesn't matter how many times you deny it.
cj: Sorry, but I don't believe God wants ANYONE not to be saved.
You: Then He is a terrible failure.
No, He is a tremendous success. You are arguing against the Bible. Mustn't do that. Read again the verse that cj referred to, and pray to God that you may understand it properly:
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Sorry Mom....... but THIS time I am agreeing with a MORMON!!!
At some point I have to be right:>) You express and Arminian view of Salvation hows that??
427 posted on 10/1/02 3:32 PM Central by RnMomof7
You're waivering! ;^)
519 posted on 10/1/02 9:21 PM Central by drstevej
NIV James 1:12
12. Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.NIV James 1:16-18
16. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers.
17. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.NIV James 1:25
25. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.NIV James 2:12-13
12. Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
13. because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!NIV James 4:5-6
5. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?
6. But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."NIV James 5:19-20
19. My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20. remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. (Sorry Mom)NIV Romans 11:13-14
13. I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry
14. in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.NIV 1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19. Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.
22. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.
23. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.NIV Acts 13:38-41
38. "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
39. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
40. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41. "`Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.' "
Gee..... Thanks!!!
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