Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Gods grace is given to individuals not groups of people (unless you are a univeralist)
This scripture reflects the human love that Jesus held for Jerusalem Mac His human will was subordinate to the Fathers will on earth.
The persons whom Christ would have gathered, are not represented as being unwilling to be gathered. He did not say "how often would I have gathered you, and you would not!” or, "I would have gathered Jerusalem, and she would not"; nor, "I would have gathered thy children, and they would not"; but, "how often would I have gathered thy children, and ye would not!"
The plain reading of this text offers no proof of men's resisting the operations of the Spirit and grace of God; but only shows what obstructions and discouragements were thrown in the way of attendance on the external ministry of the word.
He said to the stubborn Pharisees, "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 6:40). He would have given these lost men life, but they would not come. He would; they would not. There is no irresistible grace here, either.
You need to read down a bit further Mac
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That sounds pretty prededestined to me:>)
That God's grace can be resisted and refused is a matter of Scriptural record from Genesis to Revelation. Cain refused God (Ge. 4:5-16);
Cain was our representive in the Garden..he was the only man other than Christ that was born without his will being bound by original sin. (That is why Jesus is the second Adam). Adam failed ..and so we all failed in the garden..and we all carry the penalty…we are the children of Adam..we were in that garden with his and his choice was our choice….He was a test Mack..
men living during the Great Tribulation will also refuse God (Re. 9:20-21; 16:9,11). Men have been foolishly refusing and rejecting God's call for the entire, wretched, 6,000 years of human history.
And you know Mack that is the BEST proof for a limited atonement
Read it..they will curse God , they will knaw their tongues rather than choose Christ
They make the scripture the truth ..
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Men hate God MackRom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
So you are a Christian, and you think the Baal worshippers or pagans all over the earth, worship the same God you think you do? You got some heavy-duty Bible studying to do, better get offline and get started.
Romans 9:19 - "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
1Corinthians 3:6 - "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."
Galatians 1:15-16 - "15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood"
Was Paul able to resist?
Acts 9:5 - "And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
God was not at Paul's mercy hoping that Paul would stop persecuting the Church and hoping that Paul would stop resisting the Holy Spirit. He was not begging him to change his mind was he??Paul was at the mercy of God
Acts 9:6 - "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
Paul was trembling - he had a fear of the Lord. God had converted him He was aware of who Christ was and who he had been persecuting and he was now willing and able to do the Lord's bidding and forsake his own previous self-righteous agenda.
The word of God does not lie..NO unregenerate man seeks after the one true God..the one that will live in you and change you..they like the gods they make not the one that made them
Never talk with Jew before? You should get out more often :)
BigMack
God knew that Adam and Eve were going to break His covenant with them and He did not choose to make them differently or to change the circumstances..instead He made a plan B :>)
Of course He foreknew that Israel would be unfaithful. He could have if He chose change that ..but he did not. Some of it was foreordained I suspect and some allowed..but all of it was within His will and His plan
Bingo Jesse
God did know we would sin that is why he gave us Jesus
Maybe we do worship two different Gods... My God forgives us when we stumble and repent. My God is just, and does not punish us infinitely for a finite sin.
Could I have your scriptural reference on that ? See ange he does not even hear your prayer.. you are caught in a viscious circle.. God will not hear your prayer if you are a sinner...and you can not repent that sin because He can not hear you
Prov 15:8
8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight. (KJV)
Prov 15:29
29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. (KJV)
God does not hear all prayer..He closes his ears to the prayers of many..the only prayer of the unsaved He hears is their prayer for salvation or one that was already in his will..Why do you think so often in scripture that someone begs God to hear their prayer?
Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination
Jeremiah 7:16
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jeremiah 11:14
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear [them] in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
Lamentations 3:8
Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.
Lamentations 3:44
Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that [our] prayer should not pass through.
Psa 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:
Pro 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.
Mic 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Jhn 9:31
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
(Psalm 66:18
If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;
Proverbs 28:9;
"One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
ISAIAH 59:2-
"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, that He will not hear
Jer 14:12
When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
1Pe 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.
Me too Jessie .
Romans 11:24 - 25 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
He has always had a remnent to be His witness here Jesse
Only one of them...............
He foreknew your choice, Rn, and then he predestined you to BE CONFORMED to the image of his Son.
I think xins means to imply the idea of forseen faith. If this is a misunderstanding on my part, xins, my apologies...
The biblical view of God's forknowledge is much more intimate than simply a "peek into time." Ps 139 tells us about God's intimate foreknowledge of David. One can make the same assertion about Jeremiah. I find it incredibly interesting the statement Paul makes in Rom 11:2,
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
I can't believe anyone would assert that God chose Israel on the basis of foreseen faith. Israel has always been stiff-necked. They have no corner on that market. We, too, have been incredibly stiff-necked. The Scriptures teach that God chose Noah, Israel, and the elect from every nation for the same reason - the pleasure of His will.
One also must look at the whole chain in Rom 8:29. Will God glorify all men in the same way? I would think very few here would subscribe to universalism. All the acts of God's sovereign will recorded in Rom 8:29 apply to the same group of people. To assert otherwise contradicts the grammar of the text.
yes it is a chicken /egg question..
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