Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
And another excellent point..If our election is based on God knowing that we would accept him ..one does wonde how Israel was "elected"
xzins does know better He has read Romans..I think he just wanted to say something *grin*
BTW I suspect I have missed 1/3 of the posts......this was too quick
God gave Both of them had enough grace to believe
Amen!
Becky
Let's cite them another verse to think about... Gen 20:3-6
But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." Now Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a nation, even though blameless? "Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this." Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.
Here we see the Lord overiding the will (the sinful desires) of a pagan (Abimilech) to keep him from sin. I welcome such violation of my "free-choice" by God!!!
So Gods grace is not sufficent? Interesting...God is so glad that he has your help Dec...what would he do without ya
BigMack #410: I have a big God, a sovereign God, but I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The Bible says God would have all men be saved. I believe that. The Bible says man can say no to God. As amazing as this seems to me, I believe it. If God wants to give man the potential to resist Him and to reject Him and to say no to Him, who am I to say this detracts from His sovereignty or makes Him any less Almighty God? It does not detract from His sovereign power one iota.
That about sums it up for me. Praise God and Hallelujah!!
But in all this hair-splitting (which is how I would define it), I have one overall question to you, Mom. You say the Book of Life was written BEFORE time...before the foundation of the earth. Predestination.
1. Do you know your name is in it?
2. How do you know?
3. What was God's predestination selection criteria?
4. What if you BELIEVE you are saved, but you aren't in "The Book" because God didn't "choose" you? Are you saved or not?
5. Is God fair?
"O me of simple faith"...
Bottom Line MUST be:
"So then 'FAITH' cometh by hearing, and hearing 'BY' The WORD of GOD."
(Romans 10:17)
Maranatha!
No CJ you do not believe God is sovereign if you believe His grace needed your ok first..you believe your will is sovereign..not Gods grace...
But in all this hair-splitting (which is how I would define it), I have one overall question to you, Mom. You say the Book of Life was written BEFORE time...before the foundation of the earth. Predestination.
No I do not say thet the Bible says that
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1. Do you know your name is in it? YES
2. How do you know?
s. Romans 8:16 "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our Spirit, that we are children of God"
3. What was God's predestination selection criteria? Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
4. What if you BELIEVE you are saved, but you aren't in "The Book" because God didn't "choose" you? Are you saved or not?
If God did not chose me I could pray 100 sinners prayer...go to communion every day...I could give all I own to the poor..and I would still be lost. (but I would not WANT to cj..no man seeks after God..read Romans).
5. Is God fair?
Does he have to be? Show me the scripture that says God has to be "fair"
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
That CJ is a sovereign God ..that IS "fair"
"O me of simple faith"...
Simple faith SHOULD give God all the glory and not steal any for itself:>)
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. [1 John 5:11-13]
Assurance comes from knowing we have the Son. This is practically carried out by God's "down payment" of the Holy Spirit.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.[Eph 1:13-14]
We can have assurance of salvation now because it is God who preserves!
Your second question concerns God's criterion. He is explicit about these...
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. [Phil 2:13]
And finally you ask, "Is it fair... The answer is "by definition" of God. Paul writes,
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?[Rom 9:19-21]
God as Creator to do as He wills with us. Don't like it? Create your own universe. Can't? Be pleased that we have a God who is not capricious/whimsical but the epitome of love and justice. You can be sure that those who end up in Hell will be deserving. Those who God saves, He does by grace and mercy. Since Christ paid their debt, God is completely just. This is the point of Rom 9.
Check this out:
Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
I find it intriguing that many people will quickly stipulate that God is sovereign over our sufferings -- otherwise, why do we pray about them? But once it involves salvation, we shrink back and find the doctrine of God's sovereignty in salvation offensive.
I remember you and I shared the same objections.
Amazing that we came around, isnt it?
It is also interesting that people will say God was helpless over 9/11 .....and then credit Him with all the folks that were saved that day
A double minded man is unstable in ALL his ways
True. But that is the point of teaching...
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, ... [Eph 4:14-15]
But ya gotta be teachable....
then ask for prayer for their unsaved loved ones.
That one always kills me. Francis Schaeffer always used the consistancy test when disproving secualar philosophies. So does Ravi Zacharias. For instance, there is a school of philosophy which maintains there is nothing good and nothing evil. But Ravi Zacharias, when someone claimed that in a debate setting, asked the guy what he'd say if Dr. Zacharias were to kill a child on stage. The philosopher had to concede that his system would have no condemnation for an inherantly evil act.
So when Christians come up with their philosophy, free will, that asserts that **we**, not Almighty God, have the final say in our salvation, it blows my mind. They can't live consistently with that belief -- otherwise, evangelism is an impossibly fearful task. You live forever in fear that -- what if I mess up? What if I drive a soul away into hell? When I was an Arminian, that fear almost paralyzed me.
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