Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
That Book of life was written BEFORE time..before the foundation of the earth...
You're going to be sorry you asked him that.
BigMack
I find it interesting that Joshua has already declared that these people are unwilling to serve the LORD.
It is interesting that you would assume that this is what Joshua meant. Reread what it says. Joshua is not declaring that they are unwilling to serve God. Rather, he says that IF they are unwilling to serve the Lord, THEN choose among the pagan gods.
Your quotation really does nothing to help an unScriptural "free will" position.
The important part is what comes after what you commented upon:
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Joshua chooses to serve the Lord. How do you propose that he was able to do this?
No just a fact.
BigMack
As you've already nearly surmised, it speaks to whether man is truly a free agent or not. Which speaks to philosophies of how exactly, or how much, input man has in his salvation.
Obviously, a person who believes that God is determining everything can feel only grateful for having been "saved" (or so they think). Where a person who recognizes in the act of Creation a delegating of power and authority to man to make his own outcome, would be more inclined to realize that our actions help to determine our fate.
There's a lot more, as well, but that's the basics. Calvinism and "Faith only" go together because they must.
SD
I think the study is perfectly in keeping with the ideas that "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" and that "Many will say to [Jesus] in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will [He] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
And the general bickering over Christian doctrine that goes on here day in and day out is certainly evidence of that possibility. Christ prayed that His disciples would be unified:
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The unity on this thread seems to be somewhat lacking, all because of the mistaken concept of what predestination is.
It's not our choices that are predestined; what is predestined is the Plan of Salvation, whereby a Savior would be provided to save those who desire to be saved. As Nephi puts it, "the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world". When we play a game of Sorry! or Monopoly, the rules are established ahead of time, and the interplay of those rules with the choices made by the players will determine the outcome of the game. There will be a winner, but that is determined by the choices made by all of the players during the course of the game. In real life, God has designed it so that everyone can win, provided they make correct choices. Nobody is prevented by God from winning; everyone wins or loses depending on the choices they make. The choices are not predetermined, but the rules under which everyone "plays" are.
Then what does their being "bought" signify? Of what value is it?
SD
Are you saying that He does not wish all to be saved?
I don't see how that follows. What I said is that the way you ask the question reveals that you believe God could have done more. That each person who is not saved, is not saved because God did not do more.
SD
Mack every one of us deserve Hell..everyone..can you thank God that he decided to save some He should have and could have sent to hell..
Can you glorify God that when Jesus hung on that cross YOUR face was before him and He bore your sins and transgressions for you?
Mack you did not save yourself
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Yep. That didn't work too well during the Spanish Inquisition either.
(Uh oh.)
SD
Becky
Where does it say that God withdrew His control of His creation and ceeded it to man? Could I have the chapter and verse?
Did God tell you to write that?
SD
It means that He paid the price of all sin, for ALL, the lost and the saved, its our choice "free will" to accept it or not. Just because some don't accept it doesn't mean that He didn't pay the price for them. He "bought" us all, and gave us free will to accept it or reject it.
I give you this gift Dave, you can accept it or turn it down, that is your choice, if you turn it down, it doesn't mean I didn't offer it to ya does it?
Oh yeah, angelo already laid claim to my Harley, you will have to take the GoldWing, after the rapture. :)
BigMack
No Dave I believe God did more than he had too..He set aside a rhemnant for himself when we all belong in hell
No, God called me, and I accepted Him in my heart, God called the man on the cross too, but he turned him down. Its called freewill Mom.
BigMack
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