Catholic Caucus: "Guidelines" re: discussions of Liturgy, other prudential decisions?

[Polycarp]

Can I suggest "Guidelines" for our Catholic Caucus regarding Liturgy and ask for imput?

1) Popes have authority over discipline. The Liturgy is a matter of discipline. As such, changes in discipline are prudential judgements, and not necessarily protected by the Holy Spirit from error. However, since Liturgy is the primary means of catechesis in Faith and Morals, such changes are grave matters. And criticism of these prudential decisions is valid BUT can only be undertaken knowing that such criticism itself is a grave matter and should only be undertaken by those with a deep enough understanding of these issues that their criticism itself does not cause scandal or lead the innocent into schism or disobedience where obedience is due.

2) Since Popes have authority over discipline, any Eucharistic Liturgy they promulgate ---if it has the proper matter and form--- is by its very nature Valid and Licit. No Pope is bound in disciplinary matters by previous Popes.

3) These are difficult times. Simply questioning and searching, honestly, does not make one a schismatic. Questioning the link between the current grave scandals and the changes in the Church since Vatican II and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo mass does not make one a schismatic, though some conclusions drawn may clearly and onjectively be incorrect.

5)Denying Papal authority over the discipline of the Liturgy does make one schismatic.

6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic.

7) Questioning the fruits of the Novus Ordo, the quality and quantity of its catechesis, and pointing out where and when it becomes illicit or invalid is not schismatic.

8) Questioning the prudential judgement of the Pope can be done charitably in some circumstances but most often lately such questioning has itself been imprudent.

Can all non-schismatic orthodox Catholics here agree with these points?

[Polycarp]

Not all traditions are preserved. We'd have to get into the difference between capital T and small t traditions, not something appropriate to this, IMHO. I think your statement regards something that is rightfully simply assumed by all Catholics of good will.

[patent]

Forgot to ping you to #60.

[NYer]

Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic.

Thank you for making that point, and I am hoping that you, or someone else in this forum, can answer a question.

I have recently attended a diocesan sanctioned Tridentine mass. My parish celebrates the Novus Ordo format. However, the mass I find most inspiring, is the one broadcast from Irondale, AL on EWTN. Just this evening, Fr. Benedict Groeschel was a concelebrant, delivering a very powerful homily. This mass format combines the best of the other two formats. Does it have a name? Do any other churches in the US use this format?

[nickcarraway]

Possibly it was a Latin Novus Ordo mass.

[.45MAN]

Great answer! 4 questions that we should all keep in mind..
It is very hard to continue on a post when there are people just waiting to attack. We could all learn so much from positive posts with positive suggestions rather than all the ranting. Thanks patent for your rational thoughts....

[Sock]

Yes to your post and Siobhan's.

...all the faithful of Christ must believe "that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons.

... the faithful of whatever rite and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation... [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council I, 1870]

Catholic Doctrine and Catechetics - Papal Primacy (Authority)

[narses]

Thank you. My intent wasn't to anger you but to point out that it was a gratuitous slap, intentional or not. There was no need to inject the arch-heretic into this conversation at all. If you want to question intent based on the four corners of the written words here, it becomes quite easy. Factually, based on your reaction, I suspect you had no conscious intent to be as insulting as it appeared. Certainly, in response, I had no such intent. Sadly, the written word allows for none of the additional non-verbal cues that help us interpret intent. I am sorry for having angered you, I am glad I logged off rather than post my angry riposte last night and very much appreciate your kind follow up post.

[Polycarp]

the faithful ... are bound by a duty of hierarchical submission and true obedience, not only in things pertaining to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church ... This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation...

Perfect summary. Thanks for this excerpt.

[Polycarp]

I have recently attended a diocesan sanctioned Tridentine mass. My parish celebrates the Novus Ordo format. However, the mass I find most inspiring, is the one broadcast from Irondale, AL on EWTN.

I have had the same exact experience. On my two trips to EWTN I have found the Novus Ordo mass said in Latin, in Mother Angelica's new monastery shrine in Hanceville to be the most inspiring, reverent, sacred, and moving mass I have ever witnessed.

The mass there is said according to the stated desires of Vatican II, to include saying mass facing East and the liberal use of Latin and chant, and in compliance with all the rubrics.

Unfortunately, if Vatican II were truly followed and the stated revisions to the mass implemented according to the desires of V II as well as Pope Paul VI, ALL MASSES in the USA would resemble this mass that you and I both appreciate so much, but obviously they do not. The question then is WHY NOT?

And it is precisely this type of question that every Catholic DOES have the right to ask, without being labeled a bad Catholic.

[narses]

I have said for years that the problem is NOT Vatican II, but rather modernism masquerading as "the Spirit of Vatican II". Read Abp. Weakland's pronouncments on the Indult to see the antipathy of many hierarchs to the True Faith. (N.B., I said the True Faith, not the True Mass. There are many licit Rites, not just the Tridentine.)That the antipathy manifests itself in their anger over a particular Rite (again, note well, THEY are attacking a valid, licit Rite) is not the only evidence. The wreckovation of our architechtural heritage, the destruction of our musical heritage and their CRIMINAL ACTIONS in the current scandal all scream HERESY if not APOSTASY.

[narses]

Let me add this, it is their criminal actions and the pattern of criminal conspiracy that remove all doubt. This isn't a case of one sick priest. This is a half century of toleration, acceptance and celebration of criminal conduct. I wish I had saved it, but someone here posted a list of "gay friendly" parishes! It is beyond simple sin, it is massive and ugly and it is time for people to recognize that the structure of our Church has been infested with the enemies of the True Faith. How badly infested? Read your post. Where is the obedience to Rome on the part of the hierarchs? Where?

[Salvation]

to include saying mass facing East

OK, I am ignorant here and asking the question about the altar facing East. BTW, our does; I just never thought about it before.

[redhead]

Thank you for this set of guidelines. I agree.

[redhead]

"The current scandal in the Church is homosexual predatory abuse of teenage boys by priests."

I know I sound like a broken record here, and I hate to always be the one to bring this up, but these evil priests would not have been able to continue in their evil if it hadn't been for their BISHOPS. If their bishops had been on the ball, they would not have tolerated even the slightest hint of pederasty or ephebophilia. The bishops are responsible for their priests, for the good name of their dioceses, and for the good reputation of the Church in the world, as well as for the shepherding and teaching of the faithful in their care. I don't see much of any of THIS going on...

[redhead]

"Diocesan papers have destroyed many independant Catholic periodicals and hurt the rest, according to the publisher of one prominent paper I've talked to. Regular Catholics who see the budget line paying for the coerced subscription to the diocesan ragsheet might otherwise have subscribed to a worthwhile Catholic periodical."

In this diocese (Msp/StP), the newspaper is called the Catholic Spirit. It goes straight into the trash. I don't even line my parrot's cage with it.

[Polycarp]

asking the question about the altar facing East

Facing East: A short article about the meaning of the practice of facing East while praying.

[Salvation]

Today's (8-14-02) Gospel fits this thread:

From: Matthew 18:15-20 Fraternal Correction. The Apostles' Authority ---------------------------------------------- (Jesus said to His disciples), [15] "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. [16] But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. [17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. [18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. [19] Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven. [20] For where two or three are gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them."