The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

I think its more like the 10 commandments can be condensed to "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself".

[DouglasKC]

Let me remind you that Jesus was resurrected with a flesh and bone body. It was a glorified body, but still flesh and bone. We will get bodies like that when He returns. To deny that Jesus rose bodily from the grave, as you are doing, marks you as an heretic. It is a basic doctrine of the Christian faith.

As you well know, I don't deny that Jesus rose bodily, I deny that he arose with a physical body. He arose with a spiritual body. You keep ignoring nearly the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 and instead base your understanding on one verse of scripture that has a logical explanation.

Let me try this one more time and then I'll give up and figure you both just don't get it. :-)

Stay with me here. God created the physical universe through Christ. Agreed?

Everything in the physical universe is made of created matter in the form of atoms, molecules, subatomic particles, and some other things that are unknown to science, but created by God through Christ...agreed?

If everything that God created through Christ were to disappear, the only things left would be God and those things that God created eternal. In other words, things that are on a different plain of existence besides the physical universe we live in....agreed?

Those things that are left cannot be made of anything physical because all things in the universe, seen and unseen, are part of the creation....agreed?

Anything that is left must be made of substance that is NOT created since all things that were created of a different substance are gone...agreed?

God is spirit and is made of non created material.

Joh 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Agreed?

Jesus Christ was God before his incarnation and made of non-created material. Therefore he was also spirit. Agreed?

Jesus Christ was made flesh and blood. Agreed?

Now we come to the crux of the matter (if we've agreed up to this point).

What was Jesus AFTER he was resurrected?

Let's let Jesus answer this:

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Before the world was, Jesus had the SAME glory as God the Father. His prayer was to RETURN to that SAME glory that he had. To his spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Here Paul says it again. Jesus was made a spirit. A spiritual body.

I have the word of Jesus Christ of Nazareth and Paul. I'm sorry, but I won't accept your word over theirs.

[JHavard]

So now we have Noahide at 66, Mosiac at 2,832.06, so the Jews still win. Lol

Sorry, that final score should have been, Noahide 66, Mosiac 576.22, but the Jews still win again. Lol again

JH :-)

[JHavard]

I think its more like the 10 commandments can be condensed to "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself".

So your willing to forfeit the game huh? Okay, Noahide 66, Mosaic 1.

JH :-( I lost a couple buck$ on that one......

[DouglasKC]

If a person has accepted Christ they await their resurrection at the beginning of the milleniel kingdom:
Where do they await this resurrection? Do they cease to exist temporarily? I'm unclear about the intermediate state.

The actual mechanics of it would require tons of speculation, but the bible indicates that the human spirit returns to God at death. But that spirit is not conscious. The bible refers to the dead as being in a state anagulous to sleep...not being conscious. For the physical resurrection, the spirit is returned to a new body created by God.

For a spiritual resurrection, such as the one believers have, the eternal spiritual body becomes created after receiving God's Holy Spirit, but remains unconscous unitl the return of Christ.

[malakhi]

So your willing to forfeit the game huh? Okay, Noahide 66, Mosaic 1.

Actually, that would be Mosaic 2. ;o)

[JHavard]

Here Paul says it again. Jesus was made a spirit. A spiritual body.

Pretty good job of splanin thar fella, and I hope your right, "cuz" (a little CD language there:-)I don't care if I ever see this old physical body again.

My vote is for Doug's glorified spiritual body.

JH :-)

[DouglasKC]

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here, Paul gives us the make up of man The pneuma (spirit); the psyche (soul); and the soma (body). Obviously, the three are distinct and Paul uses "soma" to refer to the physical body.

Paul indeed gives us the makeup of man. Spirit is the human spirit, the power of our intellect, that which makes us human, not animal. Body is our fleshly body. Soul is the life in that body.

Paul prays that our entire existence, who we are, will be preserved BLAMELESS until Christ returns. That's exactly right. If who we are is not sanctified and that sanctified body preserved then there is no basis on which a spiritual body can be created...we would be sinners and unable to become eternal at Christ's return.

It DOES NOT say that man has eternal life already, it states Paul's wish that God will grant them the mercy to in their physical life to remain IN Christ until Christ returns.

[DouglasKC]

Pretty good job of splanin thar fella, and I hope your right, "cuz" (a little CD language there:-)I don't care if I ever see this old physical body again. My vote is for Doug's glorified spiritual body.

I gotta give God credit for that one. We had a sermon today on just this very topic. About blew me away. As if God knew that I was discussing this very same topic on this board...hmmmm... :-)

[DouglasKC]

Hey Restornu...we have some acquaintences who recently celebrated their 30th wedding anniversary. In the newspaper with the announcment it said that they were "affiliated with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

We know they haven't always been lds because we used to go to drinking parties with them a number of years ago and nothing was ever mentioned.

Question: Does this designation mean they are fairly new to the LDS?

[Zack Attack]

Interesting. Can you explain why?

Well, for one, Messiah Yahoshua drank 3 cups of wine at the Passover Seder, the third being the Cup of Redemption, yet the fourth cup, the fourth "I will", He said He would not drink until He shared it in His Father's kingdom. This will fulfill the terms of New Heart Covenant.

This covenant also says that all shall know YHWH and all shall walk in His statutes and judgments.

Until then, there are also terms of this Covenant that have yet to take place. Namely, the reuniting of the whole House of Israel.

Jeremiah 31
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Covenant is made with the Houses of Israel and Judah. Others will join in, but these are the key covenant parties.

Jeremiah 32
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith YHWH; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Ezekiel 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

There are other verses, but wherever Scripture speaks of this eternal New Heart Covenant, it focuses on the joining together the two sticks, the two witnesses, Israel and Judah again and them possessing all the land of promise.

It also speaks of another exodus, a great exodus, one that will make the exodus from Egypt a forgotten thing.

[drstevej]

***Do you think what you describe here is at all analogous to the incarnation? ***

No. This occurs at a point in Gideon's life for a particular task. J

esus on the otherhand existed prior to his birth and took on human flesh at the incarnation. Remember Jesus said, BEFORE Abraham was born, I am.

These are entirely different.

[snerkel]

Are the 66 not for the Hasidic Gentiles?

To clear the air, I was speaking of the 7 Laws of Noah or the Seven Universal Laws. It appears to me that the "66" consist of 66 details, not different laws.

[snerkel]

Ignore my last response.

[snerkel]

As you well know, I don't deny that Jesus rose bodily, I deny that he arose with a physical body. He arose with a spiritual body. You keep ignoring nearly the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 and instead base your understanding on one verse of scripture that has a logical explanation.

Then you deny Jesus' own words.

Luke 24:36-40

36 Now while they were talking about this, Jesus Himself took His stand among them and said to them, Peace (freedom from all the distresses that are experienced as the result of sin) be to you!

37 But they were so startled and terrified that they thought they saw a spirit.

38 And He said to them, Why are you disturbed and troubled, and why do such doubts and questionings arise in your hearts?

39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself! Feel and handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Leviticus 17
10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

The soul is in the blood. Adam was a living soul because he had blood, right?

Paul indeed gives us the makeup of man. Spirit is the human spirit, the power of our intellect, that which makes us human, not animal. Body is our fleshly body. Soul is the life in that body.

The resurrected body will have no soul/blood, right?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL...my daughter thought it approipriate that the egg analogy came from me:)

But personally, I think the sun analogy is a better one" The actual ball in the sky, being God the Father, the light coming from the ball being Jesus who came from the Father, Who is the light of the world, the heat being the HG, who is our comforter, do you know anything more comforting then the heat of a ray of sun on a cool morning.

Maybe I like it because it is more pictureque.

About Jesus being God and Man: No I have no analogies. That doesn't make it so thought:) But actually, I have no problem with that either. He was fully God and fully Man. He was after all God. A mere man could not have, because of sin, none righteous, all have sinned, lived the life Jesus did. The bible says He was fully man also. Faith. God gave us enough solid evidence in the bible that HE could do anything. We should be able to accept somethings even though we don't understand completly.

Becky

[ET(end tyranny)]

I agree with your assesment.

Jeremiah 31
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

It is the house of Israel/Ephraim/the Northern Ten Tribes which through intermarriage is melted into the gentile gene pool of the world which is being referred to here, not the house of Judah/the Jews. It is to those that were taken into captivity and eventually went after 'other' gods, the gods of their captors. They need to 'turn' back to the God of Israel and the faith that Judah/Jews practice, not some 'new religion'.

Besides, one cannot say that this New Covenant is already made and existing because the Christians have been restored to the land of Israel and their ancestor's faith. See how strange that looks and sounds. The word 'christian' doesn't belong in there.

Most of Christianity today lies outside the land of Israel and has a belief system quite opposite to the Jews and their ancestors from Jerusalem?

So, I too would say that it hasn't happened yet. However, maybe we are watching this one unfold, since many are returning to the Hebraic roots???

[ET(end tyranny)]

I think its more like the 10 commandments can be condensed to "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself".

IOW, the 613 were condensed to the 10 Commandments?

[ET(end tyranny)]

But personally, I think the sun analogy is a better one" The actual ball in the sky, being God the Father, the light coming from the ball being Jesus who came from the Father, Who is the light of the world, the heat being the HG, who is our comforter, do you know anything more comforting then the heat of a ray of sun on a cool morning.

Might be how 'sun' worship got started.