Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Msgr Knox put it this way:
It is not as if our High Priest is incapable of feeling for us in our humilations; he has been through every trial, fashioned as we are, only sinless.
This was just a small tropical storm but as I stood there observing, I was reminded of what an awesome God I serve. It was like I was seeing just a glimpse of how wonderful and powerful He is but at the same time I also had a feeling of calmness and security that we were safe within his hands and being protected.
Agreed
We have no feeling that He has not felt, no emotion that he has not experience. This is unique in the multitudes of religions of the world. We have a "personal " God that has walked with men
Lol, I think we will be in a few post. :-)
We are not silver or gold or diamonds but in our own inflated egos:>) We are made from a most common substance clay. And as God taught the potter can destroy and remake that clay
I agree with this completely, and since God can rework the bad clay into anything he wants if it fails to please Him, then why would He prefer to create a man spirit, that would have to be condemned to eternal punishment if they failed to live up to His standards.
Do you believe man is/has an eternal spirit that can’t be destroyed?
Do you believe all mankind is created with this eternal spirit.
Do you believe we are just created with a soul, and upon believing in God, he indwells us with the His Spirit, which can never be destroyed and will be for eternity.
Do you believe that all who fail to be saved, are sent to a real place called hell, for eternity, never to be released.
Perhaps you could give me a simplified version of what you believe.
JH :-)
JH
Don't worry Cindy, they'll always be able to find you, you'll be the only place in Brownsville with a blown over picket fence. :-)
Yes , but I do not think it is because of any intrinsic quality , rather it was Gods plan of creation
Do you believe all mankind is created with this eternal spirit.
Yes
Do you believe we are just created with a soul, and upon believing in God, he indwells us with the His Spirit, which can never be destroyed and will be for eternity.
Faith in Christ changes the location of our eternity ,it does not change the fact that man was created to be eternal
Do you believe that all who fail to be saved, are sent to a real place called hell, for eternity, never to be released.
I believe that men will exist for eternity as physical beings once reunited with their body at the final resurrection
The location of that depend solely on the Mercy of God
Perhaps you could give me a simplified version of what you believe.
Isaiah 66:22-24: 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
JH God is glorified in His righteous judgment . This is al about God. Not what we would like to believe.
Douglas, we covered this ground some time ago, and I see you still haven't given up the Armstrong heresy. Let me remind you that Jesus was resurrected with a flesh and bone body. It was a glorified body, but still flesh and bone. We will get bodies like that when He returns. To deny that Jesus rose bodily from the grave, as you are doing, marks you as an heretic. It is a basic doctrine of the Christian faith.
You are taking one verse of scripture and applying an assumption to one word in that scripture, and coming up with false doctrine. We've covered this before, and you lost. Give it up.
Hi JH,
Well, "chadash" can mean new or renewed as it's root means to renew, make new or repair. The word is used to describe the "new" moon. I can understand seeing the word as new in this case, but that still doesn't change my understanding. For the sake of compromise, consider it the "New Heart Covenant".
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There is no question that this covenant is different and far superior to the previous, but to continue from verse 33, YHWH tells us how this covenant is different in that He will put His Torah in our minds and hearts.
Ezekiel 11
16 Therefore say, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith Adonai YHWH; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel writes of the same covenant, the giving of the new heart to replace the old stony heart. This will enable us to walk in His statutes and ordinances. The problem with the previous covenant was not the covenant, but the people, and by the New Heart Covenant, people will be changed, not the everlasting commandments.
It may also surprise some that I don't believe this part of the covenant has been fulfilled yet, but then many in my family disagree with me on most things already, so I'm used to that. :-)
It may come as no surprise that I agree with some on your list and disagree with others and some are simply events which took place to bring the covenant about and fulfill prophecy, but are not actually contractual terms of the covenant itself.
I'll just touch on a few very briefly.
God offered grace to all who would accept it. - Grace was always offered from the beginning.
Faith was preached for the first time. - Faith was taught from the very beginning.
The whole system of the Levitical priesthood was done away with. - Not unless we can do away with YHWH's covenant with day and night. (Jer 33:17-22) Changed, but not done away with.
Miraculous healings took place. - They also did under the earlier covenant.
People were brought back from death. - Also happened under the earlier covenant.
God put His law into the hearts of man, eliminating the need for them to be written in stone or in books. - Agree. Now this is the main focus of this covenant.
Communion services were established. - The service called communion already existed as part of the Passover Seder. Messiah Yahoshua simply revealed a deeper meaning to something they were already doing.
Obviously, we will have some things we disagree on, but thats fine. We're all searching. Thanks for the reply.
Thanks for the understanding of how you believe. :-)
I have no firm beliefs on mans condition at the resurrection, or those who failed to accept God's offer of grace, and will become condemned.
I went over all the scripture, and I fail to see anything that would change my doubts that men who have to be condemned, will die almost instantly once the judgment is made, and it will be from the fire that will never be quenched.
It seems to me that whenever a scripture says the fire is eternal, everyone automatically assumes, that which will be burned, is also burning for eternity, but it doesn't even apply that.
The only scripture that is difficult to explain, it where it says, "for their worm shall not die."
I have heard KC's explanation, that the worm, are those critters that exist under the ashes in the cooler part of the trash pit, but I certainly wouldn't base any belief on that, or the fact the scripture uses a word that no one is sure what it means.
No where that I'm aware of, does scripture ever claim that a "worm" has any symbolic or real connection to a mans eternal spirit or soul, so until I hear an explanation that makes good sense, I'll remain undecided on the issue.
I will comment though on your quote of......
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
This says that those who were destroyed at Sodom and Gomorrah were examples of how all who sin will die.
They were totally consumed in the eternal fire that rained down from heaven.
They had no redeeming qualities in them, so they no longer exist. They didn't suffer for eternity, they were killed with in minutes.
If they were an example so we will know what awaits those who reject God's grace, then we assuredly know they will be utterly destroyed with in minutes, not for a period of time that will take eternity to complete.
JH :-)
I'll just touch on a few very briefly.
- Grace was always offered from the beginning.
Some found grace, but mankind was never offered it as a means of redemption, as they were under the New Covenant.
- Faith was taught from the very beginning.
Not so, the story of Abraham was not given to Israel until 2000 years after Adam, so no one had a firm understanding of what faith was until then. It was certainly a factor, but not offered as a means of attaining eternal life.
- Not unless we can do away with YHWH's covenant with day and night. (Jer 33:17-22) Changed, but not done away with.
I was referring the Covenant God made with Israel at mount Sinai, not at creation or with Noah.
- They also did under the earlier covenant.
I believe your being picky here, Christ did most of the miracles under the Old Covenant, but miracles under the new Covenant identified the church as being at one with God.
- Also happened under the earlier covenant.
There were more miracles of healings, and people being brought back from death to life in just 30 years into the New Covenant, then in 1500 years under the Old.
- The service called communion already existed as part of the Passover Seder. Messiah Yahoshua simply revealed a deeper meaning to something they were already doing.
The Lords supper replaced the Seder, and the method was completely changed, see ..1 Cor 11.
Obviously, we will have some things we disagree on, but thats fine. We're all searching. Thanks for the reply.
Your right, and as I’ve stated many times on this thread, all I want to do in to make others see that we all have firm foundations in our beliefs, and no one here is all right or all wrong, and after spending time on this thread, if we still all believe as we did, then we certainly can’t be as those Paul warned us about.
Eph 4:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
JH :-)
Is circumcision an everlasting covenant?
It is for those to whom it was given. It was given to the descendants of Abraham, NOT THE DESCENDANTS OF NOAH! It was never required of Gentiles.
Actually it's more like 66 for the gentiles/Noahic and 613 for the Israelites/Jews/Mosaic.
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