Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Paul said that all the fullness of YHWH was in Christ. That's not the same as you or me. The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus preexists his birth and participates in the creation of the world, as do countless other New Testament Scriptures.
As I'm studying Matthew, here's some of Matthew's relevant ideas about Jesus. John the Baptist equates Jesus' coming with the coming of the Lord (3:3). He has Heaven at His command (26:53-54). At his death, supernatural events take place (27:51-54, 28:2-4). And it is completely appropriate that he be worshipped during his earthly life (2:2, 14:33, 7:21-7:23, 8:2). Matthew has dozens of instances of people offering obesiance in combination with the title "Lord" in reference to Jesus.
Those seem to be things which do not relate to our experience with God. There are dozens of others if you so inclined.
Is circumcision an everlasting covenant?
Where do they await this resurrection? Do they cease to exist temporarily? I'm unclear about the intermediate state.
No it doesn't, at least in the sense that you're using it. It is a BODY of any type, animals, humans, planets, stars, spiritual beings. It is used to describe various and different bodies of every physical sort, including spiritual. You keep saying that Paul didn't say that, but I keep going back to my bible and it's still there:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Because we are physical creatures, spiritual bodies are not normally able to be perceived by us. They are invisible, but nonetheless there:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Angels have spiritual bodies. Demons have spiritual bodies. God has a spiritual body. A body (soma) describes the wholeness of an entity, spiritual or physical.
In fact, Greek makes the distintion between body as a whole that can be anything (soma) or a physical fleshly body (sarx):
Sarx:
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
You have still not realized what I was saying . Christ came as a result of the fall to restore what Adam had lost by his sin. What he lost was his relationship with God (spiritual life with God) and as a result of the sin his physical life.
Adam was created a spiritual being and a physical being.
They lost the chance to have eternal spiritual life because they sinned.
How would they have gotten this "spiritual life" if they were not created with it? You implied before it had to come through Christ, but Christ would not have had to come and to die EXCEPT that Adam sinned and died . Jesus came to RESTORE what Adam had lost for his children .
First comes the physical, then the spiritual. Remember?
God created man from the clay and made him a living soul.
God made Adam perfect physically and spiritually . Adam was a spiritual being with whom God could covenant.
God absolutely knew they would sin because there were powerful beings already walking the earth that would lead them into sin. Christ came to redeem us from the death penalty and give us that chance at eternal life again.
How can a non spiritual being that is only clay sin ? Can a dog sin? a cat? a horse? What set Adam apart was he was a spiritual creature. He had a moral agency that allowed him to make a spiritual choice
There is no denying the special place assigned to Jesus. What I had in mind however, was the number of times Jesus was called God by the others.
This decision by the Jerusalem council, set the new standard for the Gentile believers, and none of those who have chosen to place themselves back under the law seem to question it.
Still the decision that circumcision was not required for the Gentiles was only the first part of the statement by James, and the rest was that they were no longer required to keep the law of Moses.
I have never heard one of them comment on this, so they ignore it as though it's not there.
It should stop all their claims that we are still to keep the law, since they agree with not being circumcised, but not with the part that says we aren't under the law.
I would love to hear someone’s defense of this.
Acts 15: 24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
JH :-)
In Greco-Roman thought generally, the body was thought to be the prison of the soul. Evil matter is temporal and the spirit is eternal. In Gnostic religious systems, moreover, the believer required special revelation knowledge to ascend through the dangerous celestial spheres to escape from the material universe. The god of spirits--sought by Gnostics--was not interested in the revival of dead bodies. According to their religious system, the material universe was composed of evil matter, which is contrasted to the spiritual realm. Greeks longed to be free from the confines of the body. While they did believe in the survival of the human soul after death, the notion that the body would be reunited with the soul in a physical resuscitation was foreign to their conceptual world.The Jewish people, however, believed that God created the world. Our physical world is God's creation, and it is good. The Pharisees, in contrast to the Greco-Roman religious beliefs, vigorously affirmed the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. The Pharisees stressed a literal resurrection of the physical body, which would be reunited with the spirit of an individual. Their worldview embraced a future restoration of God's original design for his world. The Pharisees envisioned a time of redemption in which God would realign the physical creation with the ethereal realm.
Brad H. Young, Paul, The Jewish Theologian, at 123.
Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Verses like this should show us that Paul has been teaching of a physical resurrection. Paul is writing to a predominantly Greek church. If Paul was merely speaking of a non-physical resurrection (which, would be to a a Jew a contradiction of terms), it is doubtful that he would have met with such skepticism. The Greeks already believed in the immortality of the human soul. Their skepticism was reserved for the Jewish belief in a physical resurrection. In this letter, Paul is clearly addressing Greek-oriented skepticism in his teaching of the resurrection. Why would such skepticism arise? Because the Corinthian church's background denied, and not have any place for, a bodily resurrection. It would have had far less trouble accepting Paul's doctrine of the resurrection if that doctrine emphasized a purely spiritual one
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Here, Paul gives us the make up of man
The pneuma (spirit); the psyche (soul); and the soma (body). Obviously, the three are distinct and Paul uses "soma" to refer to the physical body.
Would He have still been able to teach for the 3 or 3 1/2 years that He did?
He certainly wouldn't have minded dying sooner, but then again, how would He have been able to complete all the prophesies about Himself, and do all the things that were to be recorded for us to read today?
I don’t understand why so many people think it strange that He didn’t just tell the scribes and Pharisees and the chief priest He was God.
Why didn’t God tell Peter straight out, that it was alright to fellowship with Gentiles and eat unclean animals?
Instead, He chose to tell him in a way that he could figure it all out, but at his own pace, and as he was capable of understanding it fully.
God still does that with me today, He gives me new information in bits and pieces, until I’m mature enough to put it all together and understand it.
It was brilliant, how Jesus made it so clear to His disciples and to us readers, as we read it now in retrospect, but still didn’t give them enough rope to hang Him with before all was fulfilled.
JH :-)
You are obviously very Hellenized.
Thought I'd get that one out of the way.
Would God re-create the same scenario with us, that He had in Satan, by creating another spirit being, that couldn’t be destroyed, but would have to be imprisoned for eternity?
I have always felt that God created earth, and us, made of the earth, and having a soul, so if we rebelled as Satan did, we could simply be destroyed for ever, causing Him and ourselves no more problems.
What advantage would it be to God, to create more eternal spirits like Satan, then it would for Him to create living souls first, with the option to allow them to cease for eternity if they hated God’s way?
I realize this isn’t necessarily scriptural, but as an inventor of sorts, if I created something that went haywire, and then couldn’t be destroyed, I would find another way to do it with the option of being able to correct the problem in the future.
Something I learned as an inventor, when I made test models, I built them out of as cheap a material as possible, or something that could be recycled. Then when it was perfected, except for the strength and durability qualities, I would then throw away or scrap the test models, and used good materials to finish the item.
Would God build something out of gold or diamonds, if there was a chance it would be scrapped?
Please just reason with me on this matter, since it’s obvious scripture could be quoted back and forth for a week.
JH :-)
What does that word mean to those who use it all the time, I have never bothered to look it up?
JH :-)
God still does that with me today, He gives me new information in bits and pieces, until I’m mature enough to put it all together and understand it.
I don't think there is anything about your "understanding" which will hurt you.
I also don't think my different "understanding" will hurt me.
That's why I am a UNITARJEWMIAN!
In spite of being the accounting dept's PC and Lotus 1-2-3 guru -- programing applications thru macros (those were the days!) -- I fell for the Mac in '84 and was a die-hard "Mac evangelist." But, when I made the move to full-time programming in my day job, I also left the Mac behind and joined the Dark Side for good in '95. My last Mac was a Centris 610 with a DOS Compatibility Card in its expansion slot running Windoze 3.1 ;O).
Newgeezer, you write ASP?
Yes. When I'm not writing ASP, it's ABAP (SAP). I have to wonder if my job will be outsourced overseas for $6K/yr in the not-too-distant future (sigh).
The Lord knows His will for me.
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
I also don't think my different "understanding" will hurt me.
Then perhaps I'm not clear just what you believe about who Jesus was.
I was under the impression you didn't believe He was God, in the sense He was a separated part of God the Father, similar to when God gave certain people His Spirit in the OT, to accomplish certain task.
Then when that Spirit finished His task on earth, He returned and melded into God the Father once again.
Does that make any sense to you?
JH
We may consider that is why the tree of life was moved out of the garden .
I am not sure what you mean by "God could not destroy "them?? They as all of us exist at Gods good pleasure. Let me take a run at it and if i miss the point come back
God certainly could if He willed destroy all men as He did with the flood .
I realize this isn’t necessarily scriptural, but as an inventor of sorts, if I created something that went haywire, and then couldn’t be destroyed, I would find another way to do it with the option of being able to correct the problem in the future.
So we have the cross / the second Adam
We are not silver or gold or diamonds but in our own inflated egos:>) We are made from a most common substance clay. And as God taught the potter can destroy and remake that clay
I believe that Gods longsuffering with man displays His nature for His glory .
We see in the plan of God in creation and salvation His righteousness and holiness and his love and his mercy and His justice.
God will be as glorified in His judgment as He will in His mercy . His justice is a reflection of His mercy .
Close to what you mean??
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