The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RnMomof7]

They had no redeeming qualities in them, so they no longer exist. They didn't suffer for eternity, they were killed with in minutes.
If they were an example so we will know what awaits those who reject God's grace, then we assuredly know they will be utterly destroyed with in minutes, not for a period of time that will take eternity to complete.

But that is not what the words say.

The problem with your position is that it contradicts other accepted Christian doctrine which is the reason only cults accept this position

Denial of Eternal Conscious Punishment means denial of the doctrines of the immortality of the soul, . The holiness of God, The consequences of sin, . The nature of salvation, and The meaning of dying and perishing

In John 3:36, the Bible states "the wrath of God remains on him (the unbeliever). The Greek tense indicates continuing action., Remember Jesus'statement that it would be better to go through life maimed, rather than to risk eternal punishment that would not make sense if annihilation were meant (Matthew 18:8,9)
. .Scripture tells us that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell if annihilation were meant?
The clear interpretation of hell's anguish is conscious pain and woe (Matthew 22:13).
. Romans 2:8,9 says there will be "wrath", "anger", "trouble", and "distress" for those who do evil. It is difficult to see how these warnings can be true with cessation of existence.
1 Corinthians 1:18 says, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing…" Perishing is in present tense .The use of this tense is awkward, even deceptive if annihilation were meant.
Hebrews 9:27 absolutely refutes the idea that annihilation occurs immediately following physical death.
I In Matthew 8:29 it would appear the demons believe it is conscious torment that is meant and not annihilation that awaits them.
Annihilation is not a punishment but a escape from punishment God's sovereignty and righteousness and holiness demands a hell. Unless there is a hell there is no final over evil. Hell displays the righteousness of Christ. This is not only about a "just punishment it is about the Glory of God.
yhen of coures there is that worm

The cross of Christ implies a hell. The very purpose for which Christ came into the world was salvation. Why the cross and all this suffering unless there is a hell? Christ's death is robbed of its eternal significance unless there is an eternal separation from God from which people need to be delivered.

Only man that thinks he is Gods prize in the lottery of eternity would believe that God could and would demonstrate His authority by simply ending their existence. I think that comes from a belief that life is the most important thing and the worse punishment would be to be robbed of that life.IMHO it is sign of self love

Instead what we see in scripture is a continued awareness, but with separation from God, and the inability to save oneself constitutes
Scripture's vision of the second death. Scripture speaks to everlasting destruction that could not be annihilation, which only takes an instant and is over.
The term Destruction does not necessarily imply a final state of non-existence. It can also mean a state of existence, and that state is narrowed by language defining that that existence. This is evident in the following places Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5. . In 2 Peter 3:7, perdition is used in the context of judgment, cimplying a state of consciousness.
. When Jesus says that it would have been better if Judas had not been born, Jesus is not comparing Judas's perdition to his nonexistence before conception but to his existence before birth.

JH,Some people think hell is not "fair" and that it is too sever a punishment for the sin of men .This just shows that men have no understanding of how they are in comparison to a Holy God and how much an affront to the holiness of God our sin is. God's attribute of justice demands there be a hell. It is more unjust to extinguish humans with an intrinsic value than to allow them to continue living in a state with a low quality of life. Annihilation is more immoral and unjust because it is worse to destroy the life of a valuable creature created in the image of God than it is to allow him to go on living in hell forever, which is what he has chosen by the rejection of God.

Contrary to mans assessment of his own moral righteousness the punishment does fit the crime. The sin of every man is against an infinitely holy God. "Endless punishment is rational, because sin is an infinite evil infinite not because committed by an infinite being, but against a holy God

JH please consider that the only religions that believe in annihilation are those that have non biblical doctrines that change the nature of God or His relationship with men

Look at the list of those that deny eternal punishment

Jehovah's Witnesses denounce the doctrine of eternal Conscious Punishment as an error of apostate Christendom. Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, Christian Science, Open Theology and The Spiritualist New Age Movement

So we have to ask how it is that men of God of different denominations over centuries have confirmed the biblical concept of eternal punishment.

    2Th 1:7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,    8   In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:    9   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

"You will not be in Hell five minutes until you believe there is one." Billy Sunday :>)

[Zack Attack]

Some found grace, but mankind was never offered it as a means of redemption, as they were under the New Covenant

OK, just that the changes to the covenant you mentioned made it sound like grace and faith were something totally new. I run into people everyday that say there was no such thing as grace or faith in the Tanakh, and just wanted to clarify.

I was referring the Covenant God made with Israel at mount Sinai, not at creation or with Noah.

Did you read the verses? It pertains to the covenant YHWH made with the Levites. The Levitical priesthood shall change, but will continue so long as night and day continue.

Jeremiah 33
17 For thus saith YHWH; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of YHWH came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith YHWH; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

There were more miracles of healings, and people being brought back from death to life in just 30 years into the New Covenant, then in 1500 years under the Old.

Again, just a clarification of the wording.

The Lords supper replaced the Seder, and the method was completely changed, see ..1 Cor 11.

With that I would totally disagree and don't see anything to change that opinion. The Passover Seder is still done as it was. Messiah is the afikomen, the middle piece of Matzah of the Seder, broken, wrapped in a linen napkin(burial cloth), hidden and then found. The striping and bruising of the matzah is still overseen by Rabbi's, though they still don't see it as the One who was bruised for them. The 4th cup of wine of the Seder is the one He still will drink with us one day in the Kingdom. Yahoshua is pictured beautifully in the Seder meal.

Blessings to you.

[malakhi]

You know, other than claiming to be the Messiah, Sun Myung-Moon has some pretty solid teaching that should be listened to.....

If this isn't meant to be ironic, then it portends yet another interesting turn of events on the ol' thread. ;o)

[malakhi]

can you explain to me how one is to detect something that is not present? How does one recognize something that isn't there?

I can "discern" something that is not physically present.

[malakhi]

NO confusion really, just curious:)

The indented text was something of a giveaway. ;o)

[Frumanchu]

My first computer was a Z-80 KayProII with a whopping 64k of memory and CP/M as the operating system. The screen would handle 80 characters per line, and my double density floppies held 360k.

Heh. That was our second computer, right after the Commie64. They tried to sell my parents a 10MB hard drive and they laughed. Who would ever use that much space?!?:D

Somewhere around here I still have some of the games I played on there...including Star Trek: The Kobayashi Alternative and Zork.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Think of an egg; shell, white, yolk, 3 parts all egg.

And all three are made of different substances! Two of them edible, unless you eat egg shells of course.

[malakhi]

Think of the sun: physical ball in the sky, the light and heat coming from the sun, 3 parts all sun.

I think this is a better analogy than the egg.

I find it odd that everyone always says the trinity is so hard to understand

I probably think too much (mrs. malakhi certainly thinks so! ;o)

The hard thing for me to make sense of is the idea of it being three separate persons. If the theological language spoke of the Word and the Spirit as being manifestations or facets or functions or emanations of the Divine Being, that would make more sense to me. To me, saying that God is three "persons" implies that God has three distinct personalities. That is what I can't grasp.

There also is the question of the nature of the incarnation. I know you don't want to get into a debate on this, and I assure you I'm not starting one. I'm interested, rather, in getting your opinion. The theological formulation is that Jesus was one person with two natures, a divine and a human nature. Do you have an analogy (like the sun or the egg) which says something about how you understand the incarnation? Was the human person Jesus filled with the "Son" in any way similar to the way believers are filled with the "Spirit"? How closely joined were the human and divine in him? Do you think he was always conscious of his divine nature? Again, this is not to debate, just to get your thoughts. If you want to answer me privately, that is fine.

[malakhi]

The Spirit of the LORD clothed himself with Gideon. God in a Gideon suit.

Okay. The reason I asked is because a few days ago Terry and I were discussing the functioning of the Spirit in "OT" times.

Let me ask you a similar question to what I just asked Becky. Do you think what you describe here is at all analogous to the incarnation? The Word of the LORD clothing himself with the human person Jesus? Or do you have a better way of explaining it?

[snerkel]

Actually it's more like 66 for the gentiles/Noahic and 613 for the Israelites/Jews/Mosaic.

That is not what the Orthodox Jews teach.

"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come."

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm#Noah

Where are the other 59 Noahic commandments? Is there Scripture for them?

[malakhi]

Hi Cindy, glad to see you made it through relatively unscathed. Sorry about the tree. :o(

[snerkel]

Ping for comment?

Rnmom/snerkel: The Noahatic covenant was 7 laws as opposed to the 600+ laws of the Jews......Gentiles are exempt from the jewish law..

E.T.: Actually it's more like 66 for the gentiles/Noahic and 613 for the Israelites/Jews/Mosaic.

[ksen]

If this isn't meant to be ironic, then it portends yet another interesting turn of events on the ol' thread. ;o)

Yes, it was supposed to be ironic. I'm glad SOMEONE figured that out. ;^)

[malakhi]

This was just a small tropical storm but as I stood there observing, I was reminded of what an awesome God I serve. It was like I was seeing just a glimpse of how wonderful and powerful He is but at the same time I also had a feeling of calmness and security that we were safe within his hands and being protected.

What a beautiful paragraph, Cindy! :o)

I was once in Virginia Beach when a tropical storm made landfall. We were staying in a hotel right on the ocean. The sight of the giant waves crashing on shore was awe-inspiring.

[malakhi]

JMO, but I think the last post ought to be Malakhi's directing anyone that might stumble across this thread to the next one.

I will try to squeeze that one in before the mad rush to the end. ;o)

Actually, I set the new thread up a few days ago, because I didn't know if this one would fill up while I was offline for the Sabbath. ;o)

[malakhi]

It may also surprise some that I don't believe this part of the covenant has been fulfilled yet

Interesting. Can you explain why?

[malakhi]

Ping for comment?

The 66 ET mentioned are simply an amplification of the basic 7 laws. Here is a link which breaks down the detail:

The 66 Noahide Laws

[malakhi]

Yes, it was supposed to be ironic.

Whew! ;o)

[restornu]

1) to establish courts of justice;

2) not to commit blasphemy;

3) not to commit idolatry;

4) not to commit incest and adultery;

5) not to commit bloodshed;

6) not to commit robbery;

7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal.

Ten Commandments

1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

3 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

5 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6 Thou shalt not kill.

7 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8 Thou shalt not steal.

9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

[JHavard]

The 66 ET mentioned are simply an amplification of the basic 7 laws. Here is a link which breaks down the detail:

Then the 613 could also be amplified to possibly 2,832.06, right?

So now we have Noahide at 66, Mosiac at 2,832.06, so the Jews still win. Lol

JH :-)