Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.
He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.
At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.
"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.
The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.
The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."
At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.
I would contend that, based upon the freedom of the will*, that you never were "born again". If you had truly been "born from above" the Holy Spirit would have conferred to you, via regeneration, a desire to "like it", and to continue to grow in grace and sanctification.
(* "Freedom of the will" - That freedom to do exactly what you want to do, and to do only what you want to do. (Note that this definition is required due to the fact that there are far too many people who believe that "free will" is the freedom to do that which you don't want to do.)
Are you absolutely sure of that? Or is that just your opinion.
Shalom.
Presuming that God created me, he created me as a rational being. If he wishes me to offer my devotion to him, then he must demonstrate himself to be worthy of that devotion.
The evidence which is presented to me as testimonial evidence of God and his actions, is called by it's expositors... "The Holy Bible". In this book, I read that God kills the innocent children of Egypt, because he's pissed off at the King. I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil. I read that God floods the entire world, killing all of the innocent children, because he thinks none of them are worthy of living. I read that God demands that Abraham kill his firstborn son, as demonstration of his devotion.
I look at these things, and I ask myself objectively.... Is this how a benevolent and loving God would behave?
Reason says otherwise.
Sure you do, SIN is a mighty force.
We are completely fallible, thank Jesus for being a patient and tenacious sheppard!
Not so easy to fall on your face at the foot of the Cross when we're caught up in our Sin.
On the other side of the planet we get a lot of what I call non-exclusionary religions. Hinduism is one example of that because they believe all religions are part of Hinduism. But on a less escoteric level Shintoism (ancestor worship) and Bhudhism (which is really more of a philosophy but people call it a religion) have no rules against following other religions as well. Technically one could be a Hindu-Shinto-Bhudhist and not violate any rules of any of the religions. Strictly speaking (and I'll probably get called a blasphemer for this but I'll say it anyway) since Bhudhism doesn't involve any form of worship but is rather focused on self awareness and analysis (Bhudha is respected as the person who figured out the path to enlightenment but, at least in most sects of Bhudhism, he's not worshipped) you could be a Christian-Bhudhist and not break any of the rules (because no part of Bhudhism involves worship a god other than God and there's no idol worship). Arguably the Benedictine Monks follow a very Bhudhistic path within Christianity (they even dress very similarly to Bhudhist monks) but where Bhudhists meditate Benedictines pray.
I would get into the logical fallacies I think are plain as day in Christianity, but it's early, I'm not all the way awake and I don't think I could do so without getting rude, something I am trying hard not to do.
The real focus in this area is not to intellectualy "prove" the existence of God, but rather, show that all the so called intellectual "proofs" that he doesn't exist are even more intellectualy bankrupt than so-called "proofs" that he exists.
Once someone can be freed of these silly non-arguments, their spirit is free to seek Him at a spirital level, ask Him into their heart, and then, and only then, realize what they were missing.
Of course, once this happens, they end up in the company of other Christians, flawed individuals all. That's when the trouble begins. That is why I have no faith in religion or, for that matter, other Christians. My faith is in Christ alone. He is the only one that will not let me down. That was impressed upon me in my earliest days as a believer by a very devout man who later ended up in the gutter (we are self destructive, aren't we?).
It's funny, most people shun Christianity because they feel they will lose all their freedom, and yet, for me accepting Christ is the most freeing thing I ever did.
Oh well, as long as they're seeking, they will find Him. Their very presence on this thread is very positive...
Please provide some independently verifiable evidence to support your assertion.
Ha! I just posted that 'cuz I knew it would spin you guys up!
At least you guys are fun to watch, no sense of humor though...
I disagree, we come to Christ because God draws us to him. Christ himself declares this. There is nothing in the soul of depraved man that desires God. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts that regenerates us, and brings about a desire for God, therefore since God puts the desire for himself in us (through the work of the Holy Spirit), then he alone can fulfil that desire. That is the essence of salvation, not that we desire him, but that he desires us. After all Christ came to redeem us, we did not petition God for a savior, because we were comfortable in our sin and knew no better. Left up to man there would be no salvation, because there would be no percieved need for any. The finished work of Christ in us is when we confess him as our savior, but this only comes after our hearts are made ready for him by the Holy Spirit.
Now I don't know why that's what happened. I don't use it to judge anybody, anything or any God. I just know that it didn't sit well with me, not one bit, it became a rash on the back of my brain. Maybe I'll come back someday, but I seriously doubt it. I'm really happy being an atheist. It makes good sense to me and leaves me able to function without fear of what some supreme being might think.
Such being the case, why do so few christians follow these demands?
I have to agree. I was a rather bellicose atheist in college. An acknowlegded atheist is much closer to the truth than a nominal Christian.
Not pretending to understand everything, I think that you are not apprehending correctly. The Scripture does reveal that both Adam and Eve knew that they should not do what they both did and that they knew, at least Adam did, exactly why they should not.
You cannot compare a 3 year old, who was born with a depraved and sinful nature, with Adam. Adam breathed in his first breath to behold the glory of God. He was fully matured in reasoning and posessed every single thing he needed to correctly choose from that moment.
Oh, even though Eve ate the apple first, it is beause of Adam that sin came into the world. Ponder that!
BTW, as God is considered almighty why didn't he just make... let's say a "watermelon of forgetting the knowledge of good and evil" and told Adam and Eve that it is very delicious and that they should try it?
As God is not only Almighty, but also all knowing, separating the end from the beginning and knowing all detail of every single person before a man's days were ordained, having fully fashioned all men and their days before there was a single one of them; why did God not simply create Adam differently?
But of course these stories (especially that of Adam and Eve) were made up to explain why reality is the way it is and not as it should be.
Sounds just like what I heard from my old Episcopal church. If you don't mind, do you claim to be saved and (if so) what kind of church do you attend?
The "smarter" we humans get, as we inspect and dissect ourselves and our natural surroundings, the more difficult it should be for us to dismiss the evidence of an intelligent designer behind it all.
It would be much easier to believe all of this could have happened by chance, if it weren't so extremely complex.
Not all the potential guests have received invitations. In fact most of the people who ever lived were born and dead before the rich patron was born.
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