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We are only given the capacity to judge ourselves relative to that word...

Presuming that God created me, he created me as a rational being. If he wishes me to offer my devotion to him, then he must demonstrate himself to be worthy of that devotion.

The evidence which is presented to me as testimonial evidence of God and his actions, is called by it's expositors... "The Holy Bible". In this book, I read that God kills the innocent children of Egypt, because he's pissed off at the King. I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil. I read that God floods the entire world, killing all of the innocent children, because he thinks none of them are worthy of living. I read that God demands that Abraham kill his firstborn son, as demonstration of his devotion.

I look at these things, and I ask myself objectively.... Is this how a benevolent and loving God would behave?

Reason says otherwise.

>>In this book, I read that God kills the innocent children of Egypt, because he's pissed off at the King. I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil. I read that God floods the entire world, killing all of the innocent children, because he thinks none of them are worthy of living. I read that God demands that Abraham kill his firstborn son, as demonstration of his devotion. I look at these things, and I ask myself objectively.... Is this how a benevolent and loving God would behave? Reason says otherwise.<<

Human reason, yes. Infinitely limited human reason, yes.

I have seen you make this point several times owk, and I have to offer another perspective. I notice you treat death and suffering in this life as always evil. Why is that? When I spank a small child for mis-behaving am I defying reason by causing the child's suffering, or am I trying to teach the child so that he will live a better, happier more ordered adult life than the one to which a pampered, spoiled brat has to look forward?

Now, I understand that from human reasoning, death is the final solution. It is the end and that is why our pagan society considers anything technology does to increase the human life span to be above all things heralded. Which is 180 degrees from Paul's statement, "for us to die is gain."

But let me offer an analogy to explain the Christian perspective. I admit all analogies fall short, but this might, at least, cause you to attack the issue from a different direction.

I compare this life to the afterlife as I would compare my public school years to adulthood. Now, if I think that after I graduate from High School, I cease to exist, I would want to stay in school as long as possible. I would not care about my grades and would party all the time. Being held back a few years would be a good thing. I would consider it very cruel for parents to make their kids study instead of party. If someone was grounded, I would consider it a tremendous cruelty. After all, if life ends the day you graduate, what logical reason would there be for going to class, doing homework, learning a work ethic or any of the other things we, of course, know that kids are being taught (by loving parents, at least) before they're 18. From the perspective of the kid that believes life ends at graduation, that is a bad event to be avoided. You would even consider it cruel to remove a kid early to home school him or send him to private school. But then, your reasoning is highly limited at that age. You are not allowed, and for good reason, to make these decisions for yourself…

I could go on and on, and there are plenty of holes in this analogy. But maybe it will allow you to consider the possibility that your human reasoning, as superior as it is to many people (and, quite frankly, I think it is), is still flawed.

Being the smartest sheep in the herd still makes you a total nincompoop compared to the shepherd. Sometimes the smartest sheep are the ones who learn to follow the "good shepherd" because they understand that, as good as their reasoning capacity may be, it still leaves them sorely ill equipped for the journey they are on, whether they chose to go on the journey or not. I'm smart enough to know that I don't understand all the nooks and crannies of the valley of the shadow of death through which we now journey - but he does.

OWK, with all due respect, where we are headed, your and my "reasoning ability," on it's own, is just enough to get us in a world of hurt. There may just be some things we really don't know - that without His help, will only get us in deeper. I'm glad your still on this thread, BTW…

I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil.

Read again........

Job 2

1. On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
2. And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
3. Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
4. "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life.
5. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."
6. The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
7. So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
8. Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
9. His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10. He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Now, WHO did the inflicting?

In this book, I read that God kills the innocent children of Egypt, because he's pissed off at the King.

Amazing how terrible disasters eventually befall countries that practice slavery. Look at the U.S. Civil War, for example. Or if you don't care for that example, how about WW2? Hiroshima? Was the U.S. immoral for dropping the atomic bomb? The consequences of a society's ills are inflicted on the children, God or no god; fair or unfair.

I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil.

Assuming Job wasn't in on it....

I read that God floods the entire world, killing all of the innocent children, because he thinks none of them are worthy of living.

Actually, the implication of Noah is that there were no innocent children among those killed.

I read that God demands that Abraham kill his firstborn son, as demonstration of his devotion.

Which I've covered.

We can argue which interpretation is right and which is wrong.... You'll say I'm imposing my beliefs on the writing; I'll say you are; and we'll both be right.