Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
I would contend that, based upon the freedom of the will*, that you never were "born again". If you had truly been "born from above" the Holy Spirit would have conferred to you, via regeneration, a desire to "like it", and to continue to grow in grace and sanctification.
(* "Freedom of the will" - That freedom to do exactly what you want to do, and to do only what you want to do. (Note that this definition is required due to the fact that there are far too many people who believe that "free will" is the freedom to do that which you don't want to do.)
Are you absolutely sure of that? Or is that just your opinion.
Shalom.
Presuming that God created me, he created me as a rational being. If he wishes me to offer my devotion to him, then he must demonstrate himself to be worthy of that devotion.
The evidence which is presented to me as testimonial evidence of God and his actions, is called by it's expositors... "The Holy Bible". In this book, I read that God kills the innocent children of Egypt, because he's pissed off at the King. I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil. I read that God floods the entire world, killing all of the innocent children, because he thinks none of them are worthy of living. I read that God demands that Abraham kill his firstborn son, as demonstration of his devotion.
I look at these things, and I ask myself objectively.... Is this how a benevolent and loving God would behave?
Reason says otherwise.
Sure you do, SIN is a mighty force.
We are completely fallible, thank Jesus for being a patient and tenacious sheppard!
Not so easy to fall on your face at the foot of the Cross when we're caught up in our Sin.
On the other side of the planet we get a lot of what I call non-exclusionary religions. Hinduism is one example of that because they believe all religions are part of Hinduism. But on a less escoteric level Shintoism (ancestor worship) and Bhudhism (which is really more of a philosophy but people call it a religion) have no rules against following other religions as well. Technically one could be a Hindu-Shinto-Bhudhist and not violate any rules of any of the religions. Strictly speaking (and I'll probably get called a blasphemer for this but I'll say it anyway) since Bhudhism doesn't involve any form of worship but is rather focused on self awareness and analysis (Bhudha is respected as the person who figured out the path to enlightenment but, at least in most sects of Bhudhism, he's not worshipped) you could be a Christian-Bhudhist and not break any of the rules (because no part of Bhudhism involves worship a god other than God and there's no idol worship). Arguably the Benedictine Monks follow a very Bhudhistic path within Christianity (they even dress very similarly to Bhudhist monks) but where Bhudhists meditate Benedictines pray.
I would get into the logical fallacies I think are plain as day in Christianity, but it's early, I'm not all the way awake and I don't think I could do so without getting rude, something I am trying hard not to do.
The real focus in this area is not to intellectualy "prove" the existence of God, but rather, show that all the so called intellectual "proofs" that he doesn't exist are even more intellectualy bankrupt than so-called "proofs" that he exists.
Once someone can be freed of these silly non-arguments, their spirit is free to seek Him at a spirital level, ask Him into their heart, and then, and only then, realize what they were missing.
Of course, once this happens, they end up in the company of other Christians, flawed individuals all. That's when the trouble begins. That is why I have no faith in religion or, for that matter, other Christians. My faith is in Christ alone. He is the only one that will not let me down. That was impressed upon me in my earliest days as a believer by a very devout man who later ended up in the gutter (we are self destructive, aren't we?).
It's funny, most people shun Christianity because they feel they will lose all their freedom, and yet, for me accepting Christ is the most freeing thing I ever did.
Oh well, as long as they're seeking, they will find Him. Their very presence on this thread is very positive...
Please provide some independently verifiable evidence to support your assertion.
Ha! I just posted that 'cuz I knew it would spin you guys up!
At least you guys are fun to watch, no sense of humor though...
I disagree, we come to Christ because God draws us to him. Christ himself declares this. There is nothing in the soul of depraved man that desires God. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts that regenerates us, and brings about a desire for God, therefore since God puts the desire for himself in us (through the work of the Holy Spirit), then he alone can fulfil that desire. That is the essence of salvation, not that we desire him, but that he desires us. After all Christ came to redeem us, we did not petition God for a savior, because we were comfortable in our sin and knew no better. Left up to man there would be no salvation, because there would be no percieved need for any. The finished work of Christ in us is when we confess him as our savior, but this only comes after our hearts are made ready for him by the Holy Spirit.
Now I don't know why that's what happened. I don't use it to judge anybody, anything or any God. I just know that it didn't sit well with me, not one bit, it became a rash on the back of my brain. Maybe I'll come back someday, but I seriously doubt it. I'm really happy being an atheist. It makes good sense to me and leaves me able to function without fear of what some supreme being might think.
Such being the case, why do so few christians follow these demands?
I have to agree. I was a rather bellicose atheist in college. An acknowlegded atheist is much closer to the truth than a nominal Christian.
Not pretending to understand everything, I think that you are not apprehending correctly. The Scripture does reveal that both Adam and Eve knew that they should not do what they both did and that they knew, at least Adam did, exactly why they should not.
You cannot compare a 3 year old, who was born with a depraved and sinful nature, with Adam. Adam breathed in his first breath to behold the glory of God. He was fully matured in reasoning and posessed every single thing he needed to correctly choose from that moment.
Oh, even though Eve ate the apple first, it is beause of Adam that sin came into the world. Ponder that!
BTW, as God is considered almighty why didn't he just make... let's say a "watermelon of forgetting the knowledge of good and evil" and told Adam and Eve that it is very delicious and that they should try it?
As God is not only Almighty, but also all knowing, separating the end from the beginning and knowing all detail of every single person before a man's days were ordained, having fully fashioned all men and their days before there was a single one of them; why did God not simply create Adam differently?
But of course these stories (especially that of Adam and Eve) were made up to explain why reality is the way it is and not as it should be.
Sounds just like what I heard from my old Episcopal church. If you don't mind, do you claim to be saved and (if so) what kind of church do you attend?
The "smarter" we humans get, as we inspect and dissect ourselves and our natural surroundings, the more difficult it should be for us to dismiss the evidence of an intelligent designer behind it all.
It would be much easier to believe all of this could have happened by chance, if it weren't so extremely complex.
Not all the potential guests have received invitations. In fact most of the people who ever lived were born and dead before the rich patron was born.
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