Posted on 05/11/2023 7:23:42 AM PDT by ebb tide
Francis is adding some non-Catholic murder victims to the Roman Martyrology. They will apparently have their own Roman feast day henceforth, and the Orthodox Antipope Tawadros II has been invited to offer Sunday Mass next week in St. John Lateran, the mother Church of Rome, to help celebrate the occasion.
Translation: Schismatics are now being canonized.
But lo, this contradicts the very Spirit of the Council! Florence, that is:
[This Council] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives… and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 11
And what of the express intention and mind of the Supreme Legislator? Clement VI, that is:
[We] believe that all those who in baptism have received the same Catholic faith, and afterwards have withdrawn and will withdraw in the future from the communion of this same Roman Church, which one alone is Catholic, are schismatic and heretical, if they remain obstinately separated from the faith of this Roman Church… [and] that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.
Pope Clement VI, Super Quibusdam
And what of the Sacred Congregations?
Joining in heretic and schismatic worship is universally prohibited by natural and divine law, from which no one has the power to dispense, and which nothing excuses. … [This holds] especially where commemoration is made of living Patriarchs and Bishops—schismatics and heretics—proclaimed as “preachers of the Catholic faith.” … Should not one believe, or at least fear, that from this fact alone [the schismatics] would be more greatly confirmed in their errors, and also be persuaded by such example that they are walking the right path to salvation? Whence it follows that it is most difficult to avoid the danger of pernicious scandal to heretics and schismatics themselves: therefore, a Catholic cannot be safe in his conscience if he so joins with them in divine worship.Instruction of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith (1729, n. 311)
There are almost endless condemnations of these kind of “authentic magisterial acts” regularly thrown around by Francis.
Makes one think of that other Jesuit…
If [the Pope] gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed.
The Pope could be schismatic… if he wished to overturn the rites of the Church based on Apostolic Tradition.Suarez, De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, n. 16
Dare we hope that some Catholic Cardinal out there… anywhere… will achieve some semblance of conviction regarding his sworn duty to defend the Pope and Holy Mother Church? This is our prayer.
Ping
What better way to camouflage evil than behind an appearance of semi-benign stupidity?
Prayers up for Holy Mother Church.
I am separated from the Novus Ordo, and most certainly from francis the schismatic, but absolutely not from the faith of the Church.
TL/DR: Lutheranism isn’t so bad, but Luther was the very spawn of Satan.
I have frequently been accused of the fallacy of ad hominem against Lutheranism because of criticisms I have made against Luther, but that has never been my intent. Rather, I have argued that Catholicism does not simply hold the opposite theological position that Lutherans hold. I have been trying to enunciate the true Catholic faith, in the context of Lutheran theology, by pointing out that the Catholic Church had objections to Luther that even modern Lutherans would find quite reasonable. I’ve not tried to argue that Luther was evil, and therefore Lutherans are evil, but rather that Lutherans and Catholics are not so apart as the fact that the Catholic Church condemned Luther would suggest.
Luther preached that war should be made against the Church, even at the cost of tens of millions of lives, because the common-folk were damned to Hell by God, who considered their lives as meaningless cannon fodder.
Until the Muslims threatened the Princes whom Luther had led astray, Luther even preached that it would be a wonderful and blessed thing if Islam were destroy every last vestige of the Catholic Church, save the remnant that at the time existed only in Northern Germany.
He believed that if a person were inclined to sin, he should indulge in that sin with whole-hearted and reckless abandon, in the belief that by discovering his lack of guilt, he would understand the power of forgiveness, whereas the truth is such wanton sinfulness destroys the conscience and creates concupiscence to make reform more difficult, and that all sin brings evil and scandal upon the victims of that sin, which is the very reason Christ took sin upon himself.
He denied the canonicity of Hebrews, of the Apocalypse and the letters of John, the letters of Peter, and the Letter of James, for the sole reason that the Catholic Church had used those books to prove that what he had declared unbiblical to be biblical.
He asserted that the graces and charisms given to the Church were ineffective, that the very Will of God could be thwarted not only by the sinfulness of the subject of those graces, but by the sinfulness of the ministers of the Church of God through whom those graces flowed.
Many Lutherans (and other Protestants) have debated how fair or representative of Luther these facts are, but these are the accusations made against him which inspired the condemnation of the Church, and which rather than denying, he defended.
[Not germaine to THIS conversation, but the only reason I typically bring these horrors of Luther up is to point out that the Catholic Church does not believe in salvation by works, but through the Grace of God; that what the Church denied when it denied Solas Fides was not that Faith was necessary and Works were insufficient, but that Faith and Works were both signs of the Grace that was itself the source of all salvation. When the Church denied Sola Scriptura, it was not admitting that its doctrines were alien to scripture, but that especially when excised of the apocalypse of John, the scriptures were not self-defining and by their own testimony required the intervention of ministers of the Church to be understood properly; that the Catholic Church opposed the Gnostic notion that one could mystically interpret the Scriptures without assistance, learning or confirmation of Spirit.]
Sure, we could put it under the title of his last book “Of the Jews and their lies”.
Yes, very naughty of him to condemn the selling of indulgences. And denying the Pope has the keys over Purgatory. (I wouldn't give the Pope the keys to the restroom). Sure Marty had some kooky ideas about certain books of the Bible but he was a product of his times and his education (Catholic seminary). I have no need to start a thread on the failings of the Catholic Church so I will let it go.
Again he was a product of his times and education. He got some things right and some things wrong.
Excellent comment! Have you posted something similar in the past with footnotes that you could link here for future reference?
So in other words, you didn’t read the post.
(Oh, and by the way: the Popes had already repeatedly condemned the sale of indulgences and no, the Pope doesn’t have the keys to purgatory. I’m guessing what you’re referring to as “the keys to purgatory” is the ability to proclaim a general, plenary indulgence, but that can’t be imposed by a Pope, and instead requires the sincere contrition and repentance of the one who seeks it out. And there’s no way Luther ever witnessed what he claims in Rome; it’s certain he’d never been there because he got the geography of Rome all wrong. For starters, the Vatican isn’t even in Rome. If you actually WERE in the Vatican and crossed the Tiber, you’d be entering INTO Rome, not leaving it.)
Why, yes I do:
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2275709/posts
Thank you, that's just what I was looking for!
And the Coptic Pope might well be closer to traditional Christianity than Pope Francis is. The scandal might be Tawadros appearing with Francis, not Francis appearing with Tawadros.
And speaking of Tawadros:
Yet, while Tawadros has cultivated a good friendship with Francis, his actions are not supported by Coptic Orthodox clergy, who view him as making too many concessions and engaging in dangerous ecumenism with the Catholic Church.
Father Rafic Greiche, former spokesman for the Coptic Catholic Church – which is not to be confused with Tawadros’ Coptic Orthodox Church – stated how “there’s a lot of discretion around this visit, because a number of Copts and their bishops are against it.”
An “internal source” in the Coptic Orthodox Church argued that some Orthodox faithful feared “Tawadros II is going to hand over our Church to the Catholics.”
Bergoglio gives relics of St. Peter, the first Pope, to the schismatic Orthodox; Tawadros give relics of murdered Copts to Bergoglio. JP II returns a captured battle flag from the Ottoman fleet at the naval battle of Lepanto to Turkey. They, except for Turkey, all refer to each other as "Popes".
It's like a cluster surrender to each other. But there's no winner, just a bunch of men who don't have faith in the particular "religion" they claim to profess and protect.
This is the finest aspect of the United Nations Organization, its very genuine human side. This is the ideal that mankind dreams of during its pilgrimage through time; this is the greatest hope of the world. We would even venture to say that it is the reflection of the plan of God - a transcendent plan full of love - for the progress of human society on earth, a reflection in which we can see the Gospel message turning from something heavenly to something earthly.
ADDRESS OF THE HOLY FATHER PAUL VI TO THE UNITED NATIONS ORGANIZATION*
The first quotation, from the declaration of the Council of Florence, seems to do exactly that.
The Council of Florence closed long before the Copts were murdered on a beach.
Nobody condemned those Copts to Hell. The Catholic Church believes in baptism by water, blood or desire. It’s up to God, no one else, to condemn anyone to Hell.
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