Rabbis Bring Jesus Home for Christmas

Great questions, and I saw Nifster responded with a great post.

I would add that the Jewish Scholars at the time save but a handful were not even looking for a Messiah and had no idea of the timing of His arrival.

When John the Baptist came onto the scene this started to spark their curiosity as the crowds that followed him were massive. He paved the way (Mark 1:1-9).

Rabbis were so strung out about the law that they unwittingly broke it in multiple aspects. Which was why Jesus really gave them fits about their behavior.

Jesus Derangement Syndrome exists today not just among Jews, but most everybody else who hates the idea of sin, a Sovereign God who demands Righteousness & Repentance, fallen mankind, and everything else that goes with those problems since Jesus solves them all.

When Jesus said this “Before Abraham was I Am” (Story in John 8:48-59), that was probably the last straw and they decided to end Him once and for all. He equated Himself with God. We know He is though as Scripture testifies to it (John 1 and the entire book of Hebrews).

Some of the same Pharisees who had him killed undoubtedly saw Him after His resurrection - imagine their shock/disbelief?

God could have created Earth already “grown” as well and it would appear to be 3.5 billion years old.

The "appearance of age" argument's premise is that God is deceptive. We know from His claims about Himself in Scripture that He never is. (Adam was created as an adult, but close medical examination of him would not have revealed signs of aging, such as wrinkles, liver spots and internal deterioration.)

By the way, as to dates: the universe itself is commonly dated as originating [having been created] 13.77 billion years ago, and the earth and solar system 4.556 bya. If you're wondering why God waited 9+ billion years to create our solar system, I'll be happy to explain.

Jesus Derangement Syndrome

I think you may be the first on FR to coin that.

Another poster on this thread may have a fit over that.

Wait until they discover that Jesus is a common name in the Mexican culture.

Jesus is a common name in the Mexican culture.

The youngest (and, ultimately, least proficient) of the Alou brothers is Jesús (with Felipe and Matty). Dodgers' announcer Vin Scully, a Roman Catholic, clearly was uncomfortable calling him Jesus or "Heysoos", so he always dubbed him "Jay".

Very interesting theory - I like that thought and putting Rev 11 with Daniel 12.

Blessings to you and yours this Christmas!

👍

100% and absolutely.

We all should be ready!

Warms my heart to hear this!

God Bless You and your family!

Ping

Jesus is a common name in most Spanish cultures - in reverence of the Real Jesus. I personally believe it’s blasphemous to name your child that, even though I am ethnically Spanish.

It's all flipped over. A serious lack of basic, due diligence out there. Egypt -- the house of bondage as far as the eye can see.

Establishment Jesus = the fake Jesus that the Jesus of the NT warned everyone about. He's worshipped as God, just as Paul tried to warn, but once a system becomes "too big to fail"... it's like what happened when the anti-establishment hippies became the establishment: "If I had a hammer", but that's no Maccabee. Love is not "hammered out".

Which is to say, if the Messiah believed the settled doctrines he wouldn't be able to recognize himself but who cares what I post.

612. THE SOUL OF THE MESSIAH
Like Adam's soul, the soul of the Messiah is comprised of all other souls. Indeed, the soul of the Messiah contains the souls of all generations. For one who encompasses all genera- tions in his soul possesses the powers of the entire world. And when he repents, he can arouse repentance in everyone.
Some say that the soul of the Messiah has been exiled to a place of desert and desola- tion where no one walks. A storm wind rose up and created such confusion that the Messiah lost all the signs that were given to him, with which he was to identify himself before the people of Israel. As a result, it became impossible to recognize him, for he had no way of revealing himself. Furthermore, some of the lost signs and marvels of the Messiah were found by false prophets who began to appear, calling themselves by the name Messiah. But once their lies and wantonness were exposed, their false teachings were revealed for all the world to see.
Others say that the soul of the Messiah has been chained and is being held captive by the forces of evil. Not until the chains of the Messiah are broken will the captive soul of the Messiah be set free.
Still others believe that after the Shattering of the Vessels and the Gathering of the Sparks, the soul of the Messiah, which was sunk among the broken vessels, sent forth sparks in every generation. If a generation is worthy, that spark might become the Mes- siah, and the footsteps of the Messiah would be heard throughout the world.
The soul of the Messiah is described in terms that make it all-inclusive. Like the traditions about Adam's soul, the Messiah's soul is said to contain all souls, even all generations of souls. See "Adam's Soul," p. 162...
More at:
Tree of Souls, pgs. 485-486

***

From the original article:

Undoing the Mischaracterization of Jesus

You will recall that religious Jews rejected Jesus from the beginning, with the accusation that he did not obey the Torah, therefore he could not be the awaited Messiah.

Then comes the freak-out from all corners of expertise-world, when the lightning bolt "Aha" moment arrives. The total soul round-up *is* the Law. The simple meaning is as ingenious as it is elusive.

Time for a mighty rescue:

Nice touch with that burning bush ID tag.

Gen 49

1. And Jacob called to his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days:
2. Gather yourselves together, and hear, you sons of Jacob; and listen to Israel your father:

That statement was issued by Christians playing dress up. They are not in any way shape or form Orthodox Jews.

Thanks. Yes, the tagline came from the Reasons to Believe group (old-earth creationist group started by Hugh Ross) often quoted that verse in their podcasts and such. Of course, the context of that verse is about testing teachings from people who claim it's prophetic. But RTB liked to use it to test just about any theory or "science" someone says.

I can't remember the name of another concept, but it has to do with how to interpret eschatology. It basically goes like this: when it comes to practical application of what we learn from eschatology, it doesn't matter the exact what's that will happen or the exact when's that will happen as long as we keep on trusting the Lord because He wins in the end.

For example, when it comes to handling Christian persecution: if it's relatively mild persecution like we have in the U.S. -- keep the faith and live it like ya mean it. If it's like has been going on in the Middle East for a while -- keep the faith and live it like ya mean it. If what we're seeing is the true end times -- keep the faith and live it like ya mean it. If what we're seeing are just baby steps in the end times and the large events will happen later -- keep the faith and live it like ya mean it.

So I'm all up for friendly discussions and debates among fellow Christians as long as at the end of the day we still -- keep the faith and live it like ya mean it.

In order to believe the impossible Biblical story of Jesus of Nazareth, one has to at some level give mental assent to gospel narrative and subsequent theological doctrine. There must be a point at which one says, 'Yeah, I know it all sounds impossible. But I choose to believe because (insert your reason)." I became a believer in Christ about twenty years ago, through an event that resulted in me having very calm and unmovable faith, no matter what the alternative views presented. I gave effortless mental assent to the impossible story.

That faith arose before I knew much in the way of Christian or Hebrew scripture. In addition I had been raised in a Christian tradition and had already internalized a lot of Christian veneer that served mostly only to hinder real understanding of gospel narrative; Bible timeline; OT vs NT doctrine, etc. After many years of diligent study - both learning and unlearning - I finally reached critical mass of (for sake of this post) understanding the Hebrew prophets, with regard to their audience, purpose, chronology, etc. This led to my accidentally discovering, about four months ago, that the Christian scriptures consistently play fast and loose with the Old Testament.

Specifically, I was reading through Romans 9, towards the end of the chapter. On a lark I decided to really understand the OT scriptures that Paul was referencing to make his point. It's been a few months since this happened, and my memory is fuzzy. But the bottom line is, I discovered that in each of the citations I studied, Paul was completely taking the Hebrew passages out of context or otherwise distorting them in order to make his point. This was a shock and very disorienting. I hadn't been looking to challenge anything I was reading. It was all an earnest effort to understand better what Paul was saying. A brief look to the internet revealed (obviously) that I was not the first person to have noticed the discrepancies in the passages I was studying at that time. What to think?

I took a break from my regular and rigorous NT study and went back to create my own timeline of the Hebrew kings and prophets; something I'd been meaning to do for years. In my time away from studying the NT doctrine, two things happened. First, I came to some uncomfortable conclusions about my own conversion event, which discomfort ultimately led to me withdrawing my mental assent to the Jesus Christ narrative. This meant that many things I'd disregarded in the past as challenging Christian theology were suddenly fair game and required a fair hearing. Second, I began studying Judaism in earnest, especially with regard to the Jewish view of "the messiah'.

Four months after the Romans revelation, I have watched hundreds of hours worth of videos by Tovia Singer and Michael Skobac, predominantly, along with a few other presenters from Skobac's Jews for Judaism organization. And I have done my own meticulous study of some NT proof texts referencing OT scripture. At the very least, I cannot now possibly see a way for any scripturally astute Jew to ever believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Davidic messiah. There's no there there. Can I then choose to believe that God would hoodwink His chosen people for millenia and then hold them accountable for not believing in a messiah that doesn't line up at all with what the Hebrew Bible describes in this man? No way. Does not compute.

I believe now that the only way to find Jesus in the Hebrew scriptures is to start from the premise that Jesus is Messiah, as described in the gospel narratives. Then you can project him into various Hebrew prophecies and passages that we all know and love. But if you start as one who knows the Hebrew Bible and then try to learn forward, without any preconceived notions of Jesus, you will not end up at believing he's the guy. And I can't speak for anyone who might have done just that, of course. I just can't see it, myself.

For the record I don't agree with everything that Rabbis Singer and Skobac teach. But most of my disagreement is in the matter of style and not substance. This post could go for days, so I'll stop.

We had a sermon series on “Church Doctrine”. Not getting into the details of it all, but the hierarchy of the various doctrines. I can't remember them all, but at our church there were 4 or 5 things you HAD to believe in order to be a member (God is the creator, the Trinity, Jesus as Savior, etc.)

Then there were 3 or four other “levels” of doctrine, and varied in importance on helping your faith. But that you should have an understanding of it and be able to use it in your own life and witnessing to others.

Then later on we had a series on these lesser doctrines including creation, end times, when does life begin, etc. The various pastors differed on many of them (although when life begins they all agreed), and they can discuss them reasonably. And they have come to see the other points of few, and often it is “Well, I used to be young-earth, but now I can see where it might be old-earth, so....”

The pastor did mention topics like “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin” don't meet any sort of doctrine level - but perhaps might make for a good opening party question.

The “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” type discussions happen a lot among software programmers who are Christians. LOL I'm not talking about fussing with each other of the minutia, I'm talking about discussing with each other the various things in or about the Bible we read on our own and times we've had an "aha!" type moment. LOL

Us programmers almost always over analyze things in our personal life like we do our profession, especially things that are important to us. Keep in mind also that I live in Alabama, which has not only a high proportion of Christians, but is also the state with the highest proportion of Protestants (70+% percent of the total population, not just the Christians). With our Protestant belief in the 5 solas, especially sola scriptura (scripture alone tells us all the truth about God), we can be a bit obsessed with Bible knowledge. LOL

The “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” type discussions happen a lot among software programmers who are Christians. LOL I'm not talking about fussing with each other of the minutia, I'm talking about discussing with each other the various things in or about the Bible we read on our own and times we've had an "aha!" type moment. LOL

Us programmers almost always over analyze things in our personal life like we do our profession, especially things that are important to us. Keep in mind also that I live in Alabama, which has not only a high proportion of Christians, but is also the state with the highest proportion of Protestants (70+% percent of the total population, not just the Christians). With our Protestant belief in the 5 solas, especially sola scriptura (scripture alone tells us all the truth about God), we can be a bit obsessed with Bible knowledge. LOL

Wishing you a very Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you, too!

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