Who Created Evil?

The Reason For My Faith ^ | 9/24/22 | Chuck Ness

[OneVike]

The debate about who created evil is an important one, since atheists and skeptics use the existence of evil in their arguments against theism. To begin with, Christians are told we must believe what the Bible tells us. Even a popular children's song has in its lyrics these words,

“Jesus Loves Me this I know, for the Bible tells me so"

If it is incumbent upon Christians to believe what the Bible tells us, then we can start with the first verse of the Bible that says,

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
(Genesis 1:1)

So, if God created everything, and if evil is in the world, doesn't it follow that God created evil? After all, in his Gospel, the most beloved Disciple tells us,

“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
(John 1:3)

Thus God made everything through Christ. However, are there any Scriptures that specifically say God is the author of evil? Well, the closest we can get is,

“I make peace and create calamity”
(Isaiah 45:7)

Then we read what the Prophet Amos wrote,

“If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?"
(Amos 3:6)

Ok, so can we then point to any passages that might elude to God condoning evil? Probably the best examples would be the time Joseph confronted his brothers who sold him into slavery,

“you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good"
(Genesis 50:20)

Then in Exodus we read that God sent Moses to Pharaoh with this message, Now, to make an honest Scriptural argument for my stance on this issue, I had to first share with you the verses used by those who argue that Scriptures prove God is the author of evil. Those who come from the persuasion that God has foreordained the entire course of events  as Calvinists do, then reason and logic would suggest that God must be the author of evil. However, Calvinists who teach that God is the author of evil would be wise to pay attention to the following quote from (John Calvin) himself:

“It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a want of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.” Calvin goes on to state unequivocally that, “God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things--including all the fruits of all the evil of all time--work together for a greater good.”
[Institutes, 3:23:8]

Mind you, the biggest defenders among Christians who believe God created evil are those who adhere to the teachings of John Calvin. Well it seems to me that there is a bit of a schism in the ranks of the Calvinist movement.

Two verses used to defend the belief that God created evil are (Isaiah 45:7) and (Amos 3:6). In both instances the word evil, not calamity, is used in 12 of the 21 Bible translations I have. It is important to note that all but one of the translations using the word evil were published before 1948. This is important, because in 1948 the (Dead Sea Scrolls) were discovered by a shepherd boy in the caves of Qumran in 1948. After exhaustive and painstaking investigation,it was learned that the Scrolls revealed that the proper translation for these verses would actually be disaster or calamity, not evil.

Now some may argue that a calamity is an evil, because it causes pain and misery and so they will still argue that God is the creator of evil. However, when speaking of evil in regards to the nature of sin, it should be observed that there are three kinds of

[aquila48]

Do you have more?

[Elsie]

Some people don’t follow - or interpret - scripture as you do, Elsie.

So true, but I merely asked 4 questions in #111.

[Elsie]

Some people don’t follow - or interpret - scripture as you do, Elsie.

---

As I was walking across a bridge one day; I saw a man standing outside the railing, about to jump off.

 

So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

 

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

 

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

 

I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of GOD or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of GOD, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD?"

He said,"Reformed Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915!"

 

I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

 

-- Emo Phillips

[Elsie]

 

So you have to pick one of the following...

1. I have free will, therefore God is NOT omniscient, or

2. God is omniscent, therefore I have no free will.

   -----

Do you have more?

 

 

1a. I have free will, therefore God is running some kind of experiment I have no clue to.

2a. God is omniscent, therefore I have the ability to operate within the unknown parameters HE has set.

[Elsie]

Have you considered my servant Job?

[frogjerk]

Do you have a Bible verse for that?

yes I do:

Mark 10:17-18 And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man, running up and kneeling before him, asked him: Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting? And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

And, define ‘good’.

A definition that I like is from St. Thomas Aquinas - From: https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Good

St. Thomas starts from the Aristotelean principle that being and the good are objectively one. Being conceived as desirable is the good. The good differs from the true in this, that, while both are objectively nothing else than being, the good is being considered as the object of appetite, desire, and will, the true is being as the object of the intellect. God, the Supreme Being and the source of all other being, is consequently the Supreme Good, and the goodness of creatures results from the diffusion of His goodness. In a creature, considered as a subject having existence, we distinguish several elements of the goodness which it possesses: (a) Its existence or being, which is the ground of all the other elements. (b) Its powers, activities, and capacities. These are the complement of the first, and they serve it to pursue and appropriate whatever is requisite for and contributory to sustaining its existence, and developing that existence into the fullness of perfection proper to it. (c) Each perfection that is acquired is a further measure of existence for it, hence a good. (d) The totality of these various elements, forming its total good subjectively, that is, its entire being m a state of normal perfection according to its kind, is its good complete. This is the sense of the axiom: omne ens est bonum sibi (every being is a good unto itself). The privation of any of its powers or due perfections is an evil for it, as, for instance, blindness, the loss of the power of sight, is an evil for an animal. Hence evil is not something positive and does not exist in itself; as the axiom expresses it, malum in bono fundatur (evil has its base in good).

[thepoodlebites]

“From your perspective it’s free will. From God’s perspective it’s predestination.”

I’m not sure I follow that. If there is predestination, free will can’t possibly exist. Right? You will do what’s predestined - you have no choice.
__
But we are finite beings, we have a beginning. God is infinite and he transcends our reality. We cannot see the future (except via divine revelation). The angels are created beings and cannot see the future either. Gods ways are not our ways and God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.

Lucifer had a choice before he formed a rebellion against God. God could see the outcome but Lucifer could not. If the rulers of this world had known the outcome, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. I Cor 2:8

Consider a small ship in the Gulf of Mexico sailing to Tampa, Florida. If the Captain has lost all forms of communication he cannot see over the horizon as hurricane Ian approaches. But the GOES-East satellite 22,200 miles above the earth can see the approaching storm.

This is an example of perspective and God has infinite perspective, both spatially and temporally. He can see what we are going to do but we cannot. He knows his elect, those who would say yes to salvation and those who would say no, before we were formed in the womb. Just because God knows does not mean that we don’t have a choice. We still have to make a decision when given the opportunity. I hope I have provided an opportunity for you today to say yes.

Questions about evil, suffering and predestination are difficult to comprehend without the Holy Spirit. He is our guide and counselor in this world. Our God is one but the concept of the Trinity is difficult for me to understand. But God is good and I trust his plan for us, it’s a great mystery.

Salvation is a great mystery, Christ in us the hope of glory. Maybe we can have more discussions on the steps of the great library in heaven. The plan is simple after the pressure of conviction is overcome. Just believe and say yes, become one of the elect and ensure your eternal destiny. I guarantee you will not be disappointed.

[Jamestown1630]

Emo is great.

[Jamestown1630]

I can’t answer questions if I don’t accept the premises behind them.

But I gave you some statements.

[Scrambler Bob]

Mark 10:17-18 And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man, running up and kneeling before him, asked him: Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting? And Jesus said to him: Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.
= = =

Thanks, you did a lot of work.

I’ll absorb Mark, and meditate on St. Thomas Aquinas.

[frogjerk]

No problem - God Bless

[chuckles]

I gave you the verses proving otherwise. God created darkness and calamity and Satan was His creation. If it is created, God created it. It is all part of God's plan. If the potter creates a bad vase, who are we to tell God what He created is bad? If we belong to Him, can't He do with us what He wills?

Study and understand what the sovereignty of God is and it will become clear.

[chuckles]

..."Satan created Evil"...

Satan cannot create anything. Only God creates. Satan can take what is already there and move it around but he creates nothing.

It all goes back to the argument against evolution since the beginning. If there was a "Big Bang", who made the lump that exploded? Just as the "scientists" mixed amino acids in a flask and shot electricity through it to make the first "life", all they did was rearrange what was already there. BTW, they created NOTHING!

There's a joke about Satan challenging God to make men. God just says "Let there be Man" and a man appears. Satan then scoops up some dirt to make his man and God shouts to him "Get your own dirt!".

[frogjerk]

God did not create evil. Evil is a privation of Good just as darkness is a privation of light and non-existence is a privation of existence and cannot be created.

We belong to God, yes, but we were created with free will as were the angels. Man would not be able to love if he were not able to not love. Man could not do good if he were unable to do evil.

God certainly can do with us as he will but he wont exert his will on us without our participation because he loves us. He is no authoritarian dictator.

I would be very when assuming people have not studied their faith or have not contemplated it deeply because it doesn't conform to your beliefs, that is arrogance and pride.

[frogjerk]

I think you replied to the wrong person but you did not read my post #43 which speaks to the verses you mention.

[dpetty121263]

Maybe I should have used the word God Allowed Satan to create Evil.

[Elsie]

But I gave you some statements.

Yes, you did.

I consider myself a cultural and philosophical Christian;

I am going to presume this means ...What?

To me, 'cultural' means that you were born in a country that has more than 50% of its population that claims Jesus Christ as Lord.

Philosphical says to me that you agree that the things Jesus taught as being good things for a society to follow; but even the demons do that and tremble.

[Elsie]

If there was a "Big Bang", who made the lump that exploded?

---

 

background.....

Growing up, I didn't attend 'church' except a little when visiting relatives.

Most of my 'learning' came thru whatever was the prevailing culture in America at the time.

I'd had the standard US public education (40's - 50's) up to high school and then I joined the Air Force.

During tech school training in Denver, I was dating this local girl who lived close to the base.

One crisp fall evening, we'd been watching the boob tube - Late Night Movie. It was about some miracle(s) at Lordes. Now the girl was interested in the movie, while I was more interested in trying to do things that'll getcha in a position to NEVER be considered for the Supreme Court. Needless to say; I knew as much about the female gender as rocket science; so at least SHE'LL will never be able to Kavanaugh me!

Anyway; upon leaving her house early in the morning, I was walking back to the base; about 1.5 miles IIRC; thinking of the movie. Sorry; but I could not see any 'god' in those healings or whatever.

I was a rational sort; the kind that put his faith in what I could figger out for himself. I went clear back to the teaching I'd gotten about the Big Bang and evolution and the stuff that school wants you to understand.

The clear Colorado night sky was ablaze with stars in that mile high air. "Yeah!", I thought. "After the BB everything was formed and earth and everything came to be and the primordial goo got to churnin' and then little squally things came to pass and then the fishys and the birds and the cows and the apes and finally Man and then ME!"

That Einstein was RIGHT!

E=mc² explained it all!!

Happy that a vexing movie was now debunked; I continued toward the base, mulling over mass and energy and light (Darn near none of which did I really understand).

Happy that Einstein's equation had gelled my thoughts on the problem, my analytical brain coughed up the fact that equations can be re-written and they are still true.

Thus E=mc² could be rearranged to be...

m=E/c²

So there it was; all that MASS in the universe; all them stars out there; all them planets and moons and meteors and bugs and birds and me - all MASS!

As I neared the guard at the gate; an idea, a thought, a whisper, or a Voice said to me, "So... where did the ENERGY come from?"

[thepoodlebites]

God did not create darkness, calamity or Satan. God is light, order and perfection. Darkness is the absence of light. What does light have to do with darkness? The light shines in darkness; and the darkness has not overcome it. Satan is darkness, chaos and imperfection. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Sin entered the universe when Lucifer rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven. Lucifer’s sin was pride because he wanted to be like God, “I will make myself like the Most High.” See Isaiah 14:12-17. Lucifer lost his position and became Satan.

Lucifer was created by God and anointed as a guardian cherub. “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.” Satan entered into the serpent, the most subtle of creatures and tempted Adam and Eve in Eden, the garden of God. “From the day you were created, you were blameless in your ways—until wickedness was found in you.” See Ezekiel 28:11-17.

[thepoodlebites]

After the BB everything was formed and earth and everything came to be and the primordial goo got to churnin’ and then little squally things came to pass and then the fishys and the birds and the cows and the apes and finally Man and then ME!”
__
Thank you for your service FRiend. Ackshully evolution cannot account for the origin of life. The emergence of complex proteins and the self-replicating RNA molecule cannot be explained via abiogenesis (self-organization, spontaneous processes).

That is why the promoters of evolution are pushing panspermia, it came from outer space. It takes more faith to believe in that than to believe that God did it. The more I learned about science the more I understood God’s design, his masterpiece of creation.

There is more scientific evidence for intelligent design than for evolution. Evolution is very limited in scope, species adapt. The fine-tuning required for us to be here is too precise to be an accident.