This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
—> The Catholic Church does NOT sell indulgences. Where are you getting this mistaken information?
History. Of course it was phrased as a quid pro quo for donations.
Of course only Christ can forgive sin, so donations. Prayers, crusades, to receive indulgences we’re false.
There is no purgatory.
The great news is that any soul who wants to spend eternity in heaven can trust in Christ alone, now.
That is, until Jesus fulfills all righteousness under the Law, ends its rule over the Jews, and cries out concerning self-obedience in every point of the Law:
>> Perfect tense, passive voice (= it, the living of a perfect sinless life until the moment of physical death), indicative mode) <<
Revelation 2 & 3 address church bodies that tolerate sin.
Jesus removes them.
Revelation 2 & 3 address church bodies that tolerate sin.
Jesus removes them.
Which actually disproves the Catholic’s claim that their church is somehow being protected in its sin by the Holy Spirit.
If they were a true church, based on Scriptural precedent, their candlestick would have been removed LONG ago for the reprehensible sexual sin that infests it.
No, He doesn’t wait.
He actively draws men to Himself.
God doesn’t sit passively by waiting for us to make the first move.
—> He actively draws men to Himself.
+1
Maybe Roman Catholicism does not currently sell indulgences, but they used to, and the sin was never repented of.
I know it wasn’t repented of because my ancestors got swindled by Catholic indulgence hawkers, and I’m still waiting for the Vatican to give my family our money back!
Adjusting for inflation and interest payments, I should personally own 18% of St. Peter’s Basilica by now.
I have a hard time seeing the difference, especially when it’s supposedly possible to release them from Purgatory early.
I have returned to Christ already—though it was the Lord who moved me to do so—and I am joyful.
Now I continue to pray that I grow in the faith, obey God’s will out of love for him and my neighbor, and that I do not grieve my heavenly Father by falling into sin.
But if I do sin, I still have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ, whose blood covers all my sin.
But they are all dead, even if that was true.
However, GOD Himself forgives us our sins so an earthly, sinful, human intermediary is not necessary.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
That's right; so don't mess with us!
Matthew 25:6, 13
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
.
.
.
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
I don’t know exactly how that relates to my post, but that’s still a good admonition nonetheless!
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Dang!
Here are some folks who got the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized!
I wonder why they needed to be baptized then???
—> As do the Apostles.
No.
“Nowhere in the Book of Acts or in the Epistles do we find any instance of an apostle remitting the sins of anyone. They do go everywhere, proclaiming the forgiveness of sins.” (JVM)
“The second part of each conditional clause in this verse is in the passive voice and the perfect tense in the Greek text. The passive voice indicates that someone has already done the forgiving or retaining. That person must be God since He alone has the authority to do that (Matt. 9:2–3; Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21). The perfect tense indicates that the action has continuing effects; the sins stand forgiven or retained at least temporarily if not permanently.” (TC)
Talk about being late to the party!
I see Gregory’s mythos has you enthralled.
NOW you are getting up to speed!
Have you visited her profile page? ... 1100!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.