Posted on 07/21/2021 4:40:51 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
see my last post 60
Yes thank you.
If you can understand me, this line is perhaps better than saying that the doctrine of the rapture was invented by Darby. I know people believe that, but I simply cannot take anyone seriously who believes that to be a proper line of argument.
You do not accept our hermeneutic and so further discussion enlightens neither you nor me.
You seem to have missed Pete’s point in the article. Of course you would not be expected to agree with it in any way, but please read it and address what he actually says instead of using this as another chance to attack the doctrine of the pre-Tribulational rapture. Thanks
Er.. what cause? This is an open thread.
Moreover, the article has the statement “Those who abandon the normal, literal, grammatical, and historical interpretation of Holy Scripture are the very reason WHY we have so many different viewpoints on every major doctrinal position.”
Which calls to mind John 6.
very good and I agree. So many of the early rapture people accuse those of us that DON’T believe Christ comes twice, as not believing there’s a rapture at all. That is completely untrue. There IS a rapture and it happens at the end of the age at Christ’s return. And, upon His return, the elements melt with a fervent heat. That’s proof that life does not go on on earth after the rapture.
What is interesting is that the mid 1800s in America led to a number of strange new beliefs. The pre tribulation rapture, jehovah’s witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons etc.
Quite incorrect. The pre tribulation rapture is what lacks text prior to 1830
Are you then an Amillennialist? None of these early writers I quote, who wrote prior to Augustine, would agree with you (if you are in fact an Amill), as they were all Premillennialists.
Good words you said about “There IS a rapture at the end of the age.” A point I failed to emphasize.
Darby created a new philosophy.
In contrast Irenaeus predicted a specific date for the second coming that has come and gone.
Irenaeus predicted that the world would end six thousand years after it had begun. He based his calculations on the Bible verse that says that a thousand years is as a day with God (2 Pet. 3:8)This means the end of the world would have been around 1000 A.D., although some now claim he meant 2000 A.D. Either way, he was wrong.
Ditto Tertullian. He, too, held that the seventieth week had been fulfilled in 70 A.D.: “Vespasian vanquished the Jews … and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had completed the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel” (AAJ, VII; CID).
As to Justin.
Epiphanius of Salamis makes clear that the majority of the early Church were amillennialists (HE, 77:26). This includes even Justin Martyr. (DJT, LXXX; FA, XXXIX).
Justin Martyr, born around the turn of the first century, wrote that “from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God” (FA, XXXIX).
listen to his words: “The Spirit of prophecy speaks … in this way: ‘For out of Zion shall go forth the law.… And He shall judge among the nations … and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.’ And it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For out of Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God” (ACR, XXXIX). Justin Martyr makes it clear that he believed the peace promises of the Old Testament were a present reality. How do we reconcile this very amillennial (Catholic) statement of Justin Martyr with his supposed reputation as a premillennialist? Actually, I think he was being inconsistent. His basic view is definitely amillennial, because he clearly believed the Kingdom’s benefits were readily available in the Church.
These you quote did indeed say these things. They were wrong in their calculations. Throughout church history, it has pretty much been the bane of those of us who look for Christ’s second coming, trying to calculate it, and most always premature.
But this in no way detracts from their basic outline of the future as post-tribulationists, and Premillennialists.
As impressed as you seem to be by lots and lots of opinions of men who seem to be solely impressed by tradition and doctrines of men and not purely on exactly what God says in His word, I will follow the last instructions given by Christ. The last orders of a general are the ones that are followed by his men. Do you know what the last instructions that Christ gave are, and who He gave them to? It matters
I don’t know the exact definition of all the labels but I believe Christ comes back at the end of the age, the earth as we know it ends and then there’s a 1000 year reign of Chris and His church. It happens in a new earth and a new heaven.
I think you may be taking me wrong. These writings after the apostles and before Augustine is not the word of God. I agree with you on that.
I formed my eschatological beliefs from the Bible, I clearly saw that the early church believed in one second coming (no pretrib rapture), and that event was premillennial (Rev. 20).
But when I read the writings of those after the apostles and before Augustine, in this sea of pretribs, etc., we are surrounded with, I saw what these early writers had to say about the second coming and millennial, and saw it as confirmation from history of what I already had seen in the Bible.
Glad to see you are premillennial. And I see your take on 2 Pet. 3:10, 11. I think Peter was describing a very thorough purging of the earth by fire, as opposed to the water of the great flood. Peter made that sharp pcontrast.
There are other reasons for believing it will be a purging, but I won’t get into it here. Thank you for your post. God bless.
No I’m not taking you wrong. You are basing your beliefs on the beliefs of early tradition and the beliefs of men as to what they say the Bible says and means. God does not need help with men trying to explain what He meant to say. And 2Tim.2:15 makes that pretty clear. He says that to stand before Him unashamed of our work for Him, we should study the words of men and His word.
No wait, that’s not right. He says we should study His word, rightly divided.
What does mean to you, “rightly divided”? That’s important to Him, obviously. It’s how you’ll be able to stand before Him, unashamed.
I am not a dispensationalist, so I don’t agree with their take on that verse. As a former dispensationalist, who thought I was “rightly dividing” Matt. 24 (it has noting to do with the church, etc.), for instance, I saw they were wrong.
I think what 2 Tim. 2:15 is telling us, is to simply rightly “compare spiritual things with spiritual things” (1 Cor. 2:13) to derive truth from scripture. Not compartmentalize it to death as dispensationalists do.
Did Peter and Paul preach the same gospel? And what is the Gospel?
God bless you, friend. I fully believe in the ‘iron sharpens iron’ scripture and we SHOULD discuss these important topics. My concern with people believing they will be whisked out of here prior to the trouble starting, will not be prepared when it comes.
So what are you doing to prepare for the coming trouble?
Well, God had to deal more severely with Paul on the road to Damascus than Peter, but they both wound up mighty preachers of the SAME gospel.
And, no, I don’t see their gospel as dispensationalists see it. I know what you are getting at. Thankfully, not all dispensationalists see it that way.
At the end of the Tribulation those who are the Body of Christ in their new glorified bodies and sous are brought with The Christ in His 3D appearing to end the Tribulation.
During the Tribulation the redeemed (that's the members of the Body of Christ Beli9evers) have their Bema Seat rewards judgment and receive their crowns and white raiment, crowns which we cast at His Feet as the One Who is worthy.
When the Rapture happens, the alive members of the Body of Christ will suddenly disappear from this 4D realm, lifted to a higher coordinate system which is not sensed by us in our current configuration. We will be appearing with The Christ as He descends to touch down on the Mount of Olives at the end of the Great Tribulation.
If you choose to doubt that there is in fact a greater coordinate system just read Daniel Five and notice that the being to whom the hand was attached was in a different coordinate system than the wall to which He reached 'down or over' to write the judgment upon for Belshazzar. The hand appeared but the body to whom the hnd was attached remained un sensed by palace party central, Babylon.
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