Posted on 07/21/2021 4:40:51 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
You are incorrect.
Darby agreed with Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr et al if you would just read what they wrote.
You could also read the Bible and see what Paul, John, and Peter wrote.
But believe what you wish...
In Romans 11, we read that the Israel's rejection of the gospel resulted in the gospel going to the Gentiles. It reads;
"For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Rom 11:15.
That verse places the rapture/resurrection after the Jews coming to Christ.
+1
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
The Church cannot be overcome by Hell, Satan, or anything else.
BUT....
Revelation 13:7
It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
So, God’s people are overcome/conquered. Some translations use the word ‘Saints’. I and many others argue these two groups are not the same people.
Oh don’t worry, I’ll come back with another caucus thread that doesn’t mention other religions since some folks clearly are offended by differing theology.
I perceive that I agree with most of what he says but he leads with an unbiblical position of “those who disagree with him are heretics.” Hard pass.
That would be up to the religiin mod, wouldn’t it? As it is, I see no caucus tag.
Try as I may sis - somebody whined.
Hope you are doing well - I pray you are!
God Bless!
I like Pete - I used to tussle with him a bit on some stuff in the past. He’s a dear brother, though.
But I get your reaction, and understand it.
I’m made to wonder if you have actually read what Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr, et al, wrote. It doesn’t sound like it.
As to the Bible, you mentioned Paul, John, and Peter, but not Jesus. I’m sure we would agree, that He is the last word when it comes to prophecy...and any other subject.
Jesus set the precedent on the second coming in his Olivet Discourse, with his singular second coming in Matt. 24:29-31 “immediately after the tribulation of those days.” While saying nothing whatsoever in the discourse about another coming prior to the one in Matt. 24:29-31.
The apostles after him, simply followed what Jesus said on the second coming in Matt. 24.
Four times in John 5, Jesus said believers would be resurrected on the last day (”raised up on the last day”).
Martha said of her brother Lazarus, “I know that he shall rise again in the last day,” John 11:24. Notice, Jesus didn’t rebuke her for believing that.
“Last day” really does mean “last day,” RWC.
Good point, church is the bride...that is astute!
There have been short thesis written by Scholars quoting Irenaeus, Tertullian, and all the rest proving they believed in a pre-tribulation departure. I’ve read a lot of them. I think you should reevaluate your premise that they did not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture as well and that it’s “invented” by Darby.
Irenaeus was a contemporary of Polycarp and The Apostle John.
In Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”
Interesting wording with “caught up”.
Cyprian (from Treatises):
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
“Imminent”, “delivered”, “snatches”. Nice words there!
Regarding Jesus, His Words are the crowning morsel of the cake in John 14:3.
And most folks conveniently forget what He told John in Revelation 3 to the Church of Philadelphia. Specifically 3:10-13.
Excellent and thought-provoking article. Thank you for posting it. It is patently clear that God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. MARANTATHA!
On what you quoted from Irenaeus, you are doing what pretribs usually do: reading a pretrib rapture into it.
Irenaeus was clear what he believed in p. 555 of that volume, for instance, referring to Rev. 17:16, he said the ten horns would “lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, AND PUT THE CHURCH TO FLIGHT. AFTER THAT THEY SHALL BE DESTROYED BY THE COMING OF OUR LORD.”
Surely you must admit, that when the ten horns give their power and strength to the beast, and the ten horns “lay Babylon waste,” that this is referring to the great tribulation.
And if Irenaeus is a pretribber like you believe him to be, who believe the church was supposed to be gone by this time, raptured before the tribulation, why does Irenaeus have the CHURCH being “put to flight” at this time here in the tribulation?
Doesn’t sound like he was a pretribber now does it?
He goes on to say, “after that they (the beast and ten horns) shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” This the singular second coming I’ve been talking about, the same coming after the tribulation we see in Matt. 24:29-31?
In Irenaeus we have other similar things he said like this, and just as clear. Which I’ll deal with tomorrow if you want. It’s late here.
Yes, Christ is the last word when it comes to prophecy. Just as Peter told the men of Israel in his second sermon:
Acts 3:20-21
“And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
So we are told about the 2nd coming of Christ, and that God has spoken about this through the prophets SINCE the world began.
Paul says something different.
Romans 16:25
“Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the REVELATION of the MYSTERY, which was kept SECRET since the world began.”
Peter spoke of prophecy spoken since the BEGINNING of the world. Paul spoke of a MYSTERY, kept SECRET since the world began.
They aren’t the same. Neither is the Kingdom Gospel, preached by Peter and the 11 the same as the Gospel of the Grace of God, preached by Paul. (My gospel, Paul states clearly).
The Kingdom Gospel prophesies about a nation of priests, a Messiah, and a Kingdom to be set up on this earth. The rest of the world will be taught by these priests and will come to this Kingdom to honor their King, too. Through Israel the world will be blessed by Messiah.
Which is what prophecy is all about.
Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles. His ministry was about the mystery, that had been hidden until it was revealed by Christ to Paul. That’s what Romans through Philemon are about. Those are Paul’s epistles.
The reason Acts 3:20-21 and Romans 16:25 cannot possibly be the same is that Paul was given a ministry different than Peter. And Paul wasn’t saved until Acts 9, so there is no way Peter and Paul were speaking of the same things.
A worthy read RWC....
Seems to me the Scriptures confirm we’ll be leaving before the Tribulation...in fact it’s the next prophetic event as I understand it. Jesus did say we’re to watch for HIS coming to meet Him in the clouds....but I see others looking for the anti-Christ instead and lots of guessing about who it will be.
Because the mod responded and removed it.
Ping for later, and bookmark the original article as well just in case this posting disappears.
I can certainly see your point about “hiding behind the caucus tag”, but I do not know where to go to find the caucus rules you mentioned.
As it is so far the thread is useful without the caucus designation. I would very much like to know how fellow pre-trib dispensationalists are responding to the hostility shown to us by our opponents. It seems a legitimate question whether this heresy tag should be turned around and sent right back to them.
We do not need to be told again that the pre-trib rapture was invented by Darby who got it from a 15 year old Scottish girl who had a “vision”. See sasportas in comment 17. He has identified himself and we need hear no more from him. Perhaps caucus members can discipline themselves to ignore such commenters and speak to the issue at hand.
There is no problem with trusting the Religion Mod in this situation. It is my hope that we can work out a way to have a functioning pre-trib caucus if it takes some time and a few mistakes along the way.
(We need no more from sasportas on this particular issue, however we know him to be a fine freeper and patriot.)
And that is why rejection of the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is anti-Christian
Let’s read John 6 - just the words of Jesus recorded
he said to Philip, “Where can we buy enough food for them to eat?”
Philip answered him, “Two hundred days’ wages[e] worth of food would not be enough for each of them to have a little [bit].”
Jesus said, “Have the people recline.”
He gave thanks, and distributed them to those who were reclining, and also as much of the fish as they wanted.
they saw Jesus walking on the sea[k] and coming near the boat, and they began to be afraid. 20 But he said to them, “It is I.[l] Do not be afraid.”
“Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,[o] which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”
“This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. 36 But I told you that although you have seen [me], you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it [on] the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”
“Stop murmuring[r] among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets:
‘They shall all be taught by God.’
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; 50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats[s] my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
“Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?[u] 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh[v] is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
“For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
“Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” 71 He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.
Jesus’ deeds and words are clear
1. God will feed the multitudes
2. I am God - I can walk on water
3. Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,[o] which the Son of Man will give you
4. This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent
5. my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
6. I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger,
7. I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
8. unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats[s] my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
===== +++ =======
He is crystal clear - and He emphasizes that this is not an allegory, but repeats thrice that this is what you are to do - eat of His Body and drink of His blood
The whole of chapt. 30 of “Irenaeus Against Heresies” book 5, is about the future mark of the beast. In section 4 Irenaeus says the reason we are given “the number of the name now (666), is that when this man comes WE may avoid him, being aware of who he is.”
The fact that there is a complete absence by Irenaeus of mentioning a pretribulation rapture before the mark of the beast, in his long dissertation about the number of the name of the beast (everyone agrees the mark will be imposed in the great tribulation). And then says the reason the Bible gives us this information about the number of the name of the beast, is that “we” might avoid him.
Leads to the obvious conclusion that the church (“we”) will indeed be in the great tribulation - when the mark of the beast is imposed on the world.
As in the other quotation by Irenaeus I posted (post 33), where Irenaeus describes the church in the great tribulation, the same here. And after the mark of the beast (great tribulation), he said comes the singular second coming.
Irenaeus no where says in anything he wrote, that “we,” meaning the church, will be removed from this earth before the great tribulaion. On the contrary, “we” meaning the church, are given info on the number of his name that “we” might recognize him when he comes.
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