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Posted on 05/26/2021 5:15:26 PM PDT by grumpa


Here are some views of Christians:

(a) Some undefined period in the future near the end of history. (b) Will begin at a future literal rapture of the church. (c) Began in 1948. (d) Will mark the end of the Christian age. (e) Began in the first century and continue today, essentially meaning the new covenant era.

Years ago, as I studied this carefully, I had to admit that none of these views are biblical. The last days/end times, according to Scripture, marked the END OF THE OLD COVENANT ERA in the first century.

There are 16 primary texts about the last days/end times in the New Testament. Here are five passages, which you can ignore or try to explain away, but you cannot ignore them and deal honestly with the text:

• “Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, ON WHOM THE END OF THE AGES HAS COME.” (Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 10:11)

• “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in THESE LAST DAYS He has spoken to us by his Son. . . .” (Writer of Hebrews, Hebrews 1:1-2)

• “He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but WAS MADE MANIFEST IN THE LAST TIMES for your sake.” (Apostle Peter, 1 Peter 1:20)

• “The END OF ALL THINGS is AT HAND.” (Apostle Peter, 1 Peter 4:7)

• “Children, IT IS THE LAST HOUR.” (Apostle John, 1 John 2:18)

Here are the other eleven: Matthew 13:38-42; 24:2-3; 13-16 (ref. v. 34); Acts 2:14-20; 1 Corinthians 7:29-31; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Hebrews 9:26; James 5:1-6; 1 Peter 1:5-7; Jude 17-23. It is clear. You cannot push the last days beyond the generation of men who were writing the New Testament without doing violence to the text.

The last days/end times did not just begin in the first century―and continue until now. That would make the end time longer than the period to which it was an end. That is, we have been in the New Covenant era for 2,000 years, which is longer than the Old Covenant era which was 1500 years, beginning with Moses and lasted till the first century. “At hand” and “It is the last hour” cannot be 2,000 years later.

There is only one conclusion honoring to the texts. The last days are not about the end of the world. In fact, the Bible never speaks about the end of the physical universe, and indeed teaches that the earth abides forever in some sense (Psalm 78:69; 104:5; 148:3-6; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Ephesians 3:21). They are not about a supposed end of the Christian age. They are not about a future millennium. Rather, they marked the last days of the OLD COVENANT AGE, which came to a violent end in AD 70 at the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple.

This is when God judged Israel for her sins, her refusal to accept Jesus as Messiah, and for her participation with the Roman authorities in Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion. This was the end of biblical Judaism long predicted by Moses and the prophets beginning in Deuteronomy 28-32.

Where do you suppose that these writers of the New Testament got such an idea? Well, from our Lord himself, of course, in such passages at Matthew 21-24. In these and many other passages, Jesus placed the “end” at the time of the destruction of the temple, during his own generation.

TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: days; end; last; time
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For more detail on all the end-times passages, see my two-part series here:

1 posted on 05/26/2021 5:15:26 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: grumpa
Matthew 24:36

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

2 posted on 05/26/2021 5:19:55 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: grumpa


Right now barring divine intervention.

3 posted on 05/26/2021 5:20:45 PM PDT by Bonemaker (invictus maneo)
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To: nickcarraway

NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR. This passage is in Matthew’s version of the Olivet Discourse. The context is the end of the age (Matthew 24:3) in which Jesus promised to return in judgment to punish Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 23:29-39; 24:29-34) and destroy the temple (Matthew 24:2). In Luke’s version of the Olivet Discourse we see Jesus telling his disciples that this was imminent when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20-24). Then it would be “about to happen” (Luke 21:36, Young’s Literal Translation). These prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70.

Most Christians don’t know their Old Testament well enough to know that Jesus’ is alluding to a similar statement in Zechariah 14:7 prophesying a day known only to the Lord when Jerusalem would be destroyed (Zechariah 14:2).

Just prior to the “no one knows the day or the hour” in Matthew 24:36, Jesus said “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (verse 34). Does verse 36 completely negate verse 34? Some Christians say that Jesus begins speaking about something different in verse 36, but that view is completely untenable for several reasons. But very simply, there is no discernible break in the content, especially when you compare Matthew 24 with Luke 17 which covers the same material but in a different order. But notice that in verse 36 Jesus refers back to what he just said with the reference “But concerning that day. . . .” This phrase clearly tells us that the flow is continuous.

We should reconcile verses 34 and 36 rather than separate them. Here’s an analogy. When a woman is pregnant, we do not know the day or the hour she will give birth, but we do know the window of time. So, what Jesus was teaching can be summarized thusly: “I cannot tell you the day or the hour when all these things will take place, but I assure you that they will happen in this generation, before some now living have died.”

Of course, that brings up the question, what does “this generation” mean. It clearly means what it says—the generation of those then living in the first century. No serious reader can doubt this as Jesus just prior specifically laid the object of his wrath upon the scribes and Pharisees to whom he was speaking in Matthew 23, where we also see the phrase “this generation” (Mathew 23:36). The phrase “this generation” is used several times in the New Testament and it clearly ALWAYS means the contemporaries of Jesus (Matthew 11:16; 12:38-45; Mark 8:12; 8:38-9:1; 13:30; Luke 7:31; 11:29-32, 49-51; 17:25). In addition, using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Jesus said the same thing in other ways, such as “some standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28; see also Matthew 10:23; 26:64; Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20).

No doubt your next objection will be this: “Well, we know that Jesus has not returned, so some of this is yet to be fulfilled.” ANSWER: You have just violated a law of logic called “begging the question” or “circular reasoning,” which is assuming something to be true that one is trying to prove to be true. More importantly, you have misunderstood what Jesus was predicting. He was predicting a divine presence in judgment, just like Yahweh did numerous times in the Old Testament. He was not, at least in these passages, predicting a bodily return to earth, but rather a divine coming in judgment. For more on this see my articles here:

4 posted on 05/26/2021 5:24:03 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: grumpa

“I survived Revelation and all I got was this Tee Shirt.

5 posted on 05/26/2021 5:24:38 PM PDT by CrappieLuck
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To: grumpa

Yes, He was referring to the old testament. I think you are missing the points. Christians should not be wasting their time, making such predictions. Whether or not you could predict such a event is not part of our mission as Christians. In fact, it is a complete distraction, that prevents people from fulfilling their mission, and achieving salvation.

6 posted on 05/26/2021 5:29:10 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: grumpa

Where do the events of the book of Revelation fit in?

Are they a different set of events?

7 posted on 05/26/2021 5:30:02 PM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: grumpa

Can you point to a verse in the Bible where Christians (Or Jews) are called to determine when last days/end times are?

8 posted on 05/26/2021 5:30:16 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: WildHighlander57

//How does Revelation fit in?//

Good question. I am persuaded that Revelation was at least mostly fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD 70. I have several articles that document this. See section B of my 80 some-odd articles:

9 posted on 05/26/2021 5:34:16 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: nickcarraway

Maybe when Jesus said to “watch, that nobody deceives you”. That looks like a declaration to watch.

When His disciples asked Him about the end of times, He didn’t rebuke them, but told them to watch.

...seems clear

10 posted on 05/26/2021 5:35:24 PM PDT by SheepWhisperer (My enemy saw me on my knees, head bowed and thought they had won until I rose up and said Amen!)
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To: grumpa

I am persuaded that Revelation was at least mostly fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD 70 …
Why are we approaching an unparalleled time of trouble in our time, then?
11 posted on 05/26/2021 5:37:37 PM PDT by Olog-hai ("No Republican, no matter how liberal, is going to woo a Democratic vote." -- Ronald Reagan, 1960)
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To: grumpa

I don’t think the end days is just applicable to the end of the destruction of Jerusalem. Christ said in his parables that the responsibility to evangelize would be taken away from the Jews and given to another if they did not repent.

We are just in another age, with another projected end-time, for the exact same reason why the end-times came to the Jewish nation.

12 posted on 05/26/2021 5:40:25 PM PDT by Jonty30 (Just because I coughed on you does not mean that I have covid. It means that we have covid. )
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To: grumpa

In my own extensive study, I have come to the same conclusion that you did. AD 70 is the only event that could, and did, fulfill the eschatological prophesies of the OT, Jesus himself, and their corresponding time stamps.

Thanks for posting.

13 posted on 05/26/2021 5:40:26 PM PDT by indyman777 (question)
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To: grumpa

And Revelation was written before 70 AD .

14 posted on 05/26/2021 5:48:47 PM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: Olog-hai

//Why are we approaching an unparalleled time of trouble?//

My Answer: Every generation has thought the same thing.


In every generation after the apostles, there have been Christians who mistakenly believed that they were in the last days. They have thought that their generation was the one Jesus spoke of when He prophesied that “all these things” would happen in “this generation.” Failed prognosticators have been a persistent embarrassment to Christianity. Perhaps there is something fundamentally wrong with these predictions.

Francis Gumerlock, in his book THE DAY AND THE HOUR: CHRISTIANITY’S PERENNIAL FASCINATION WITH PREDICTING THE END OF THE WORLD, lists end times prophecy predictions made by Christians beginning in the early centuries. He catalogs more than a thousand failed predictions since the early days of Christianity, beginning with the apostolic fathers.

For example, Ignatius writes around the year AD 100 that “the last times are come upon us.” Cyprian (200-258) writes that “the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist. . . draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle.”

Martin Luther made this statement: “I am satisfied that the last day must be before the door; for the signs predicted by Christ and the Apostles Peter and Paul have now all been fulfilled, the trees put forth, the Scriptures are green and flourishing. . . . We certainly have nothing now to wait for but the end of all things.”

Famous among predictors of the end of the world was Christopher Columbus. Columbus wrote a book entitled BOOK OF PROPHECIES in which he called on many of the same passages of Scripture that false prophets cite today to predict the imminent end of the world. He apparently thought that his discoveries marked the beginning of the end.

The famous American Puritan preacher Cotton Mather believed Christ’s return to be imminent and saw apocalyptic meaning in the conflicts and challenges of the American frontier. Mather was also a date setter. He predicted the Second Coming for 1697, then 1716, and finally 1736. The New Jerusalem, he believed, would be located in New England.

Here are more examples of end-times dating from Christians as well as pseudo-Christian cultists:

—Ellen G. White (co-founder—Seventh Day Adventist Church): 1843, 1844, 1850, 1856.
—Joseph Smith (founder—Mormon Church): 1891.
—Jehovah’s Witnesses: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984.
—Hal Lindsey: 1982, 1988, 2007, with contingency dates going as far as 2048.
—Jack Van Impe: 1975, 1992, 2000, 2012.
—Chuck Smith (founder of Calvary Chapel): 1988
―Herbert W. Armstrong: 1965
—Pat Robertson: 1982.
—Edgar C. Whisenant: 1988, 1989.
—Bill Maupin: 1981.
—J.R. Church: 1988.
—Charles R. Taylor: 1992.
—Benny Hinn: 1993.
—F. M. Riley: 1994.
—John Hinkle: 1994.
—Grant R. Jeffrey: 2000.
—Lester Sumrall: 1985, 1986, 2000.
—Kenneth Hagin: 1997 to 2000.
—Jerry Falwell: 2010.
—Louis Farrakhan: 1991.
—John Hagee (at age 71): before he dies.
—Harold Camping: 1994, 2011.
—Ronald Weinland: 2011, 2012.
—Perry Stone: 2009-2015
—Billy Graham: Even this venerable preacher began telling us in the 1930’s to expect the soon return of Christ.

Pastors all across America’s fruited plains have books of some of these authors proudly displayed in their office libraries. The same books, and videos too, fly off Christian bookstore shelves, and the money continues to flow to these authors and many others of the same ilk. While some of these authors may be good teachers on other subjects, their false predictions force us to doubt their views on eschatology. Many of the above people will be forgotten, but whenever you happen to be reading this book, you will probably be hearing from a new generation of false teachers.

All of these prognosticators had something in common: They all thought they knew better than Jesus, who over and over told his followers that his prophecies would come to pass while some of them were still alive (Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 26:64; Luke 21:22, 32; etc.) There are over 100 such time statements in the New Testament that limit fulfillment of prophecy to the first century.

See these additional lists of false prophets:

List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia

(This is an excerpt from my book CHRISTIAN HOPE THROUGH FULFILLED PROPHECY. For more information about fulfilled prophecy, see my website:

15 posted on 05/26/2021 5:54:29 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: indyman777

And of course Jesus came in 70 ad and destroyed the armys and set up a kingdom of peace for 1000 years,,wait,,we are still waiting for that part?

16 posted on 05/26/2021 5:55:15 PM PDT by Craftmore
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To: WildHighlander57

//And Revelation was written before AD 70?//

Yes it was. Twenty Evidences Why Revelation Was Written before AD 70

by Charles Meek

The dating of Revelation is important because it influences the interpretation of the book. There are two views of when Revelation was written. One view is that it was written around AD 95-96 during the reign of Domitian. The second view is that it was written in the mid 60’s AD, during the reign of Nero—prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will show that the early date has the strongest support from both the internal evidence and external evidence.


1. Revelation 17:10 says that the book was written during the sixth king, who was Nero, who reigned from AD 54-68. (The previous five Roman rulers were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.) Interestingly, the text also says that the seventh king to come would reign only “a little while.” The seventh king was Galba, who was ruler for only seven months (AD 68-69).

2. Revelation 1:9 says it was being written during the Tribulation (Greek, thlipsis), which Jesus promised would occur during his own generation, when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies (Matthew 24:15-34; Luke 21:20-24).

3. Scholars agree that the major theme of Revelation is a GREAT JUDGMENT upon “Babylon.” Babylon was an historic enemy of God’s people, and it is used symbolically in Revelation to represent Old Covenant Israel/Jerusalem who had become unfaithful. This is the theme of chapters 16-19. The Lord’s wrath, promised in Revelation, would come against “the GREAT CITY Babylon” (Revelation 18:21-24), which is clearly identified as the “CITY WHERE THE LORD WAS SLAIN” (Revelation 11:8-9). This unambiguously confirms that the Great Judgment was against JERUSALEM, and thus the identity of Babylon. Also confirming the identity of Babylon, is her description as a harlot (Revelation 17:1, 15; 19:2). Throughout the Bible, when Israel was unfaithful, she is characterized as a harlot or adulterer (Deuteronomy 31:16-18; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:6-9; Ezekiel 6:8-9; 16:15, 26, 28; Hosea 1:2; 9:1). The harlot Babylon is adorned in purple and scarlet (Revelation 17:4), which are the colors of the ritual dress of the high priest and the colors that adorn the temple (Exodus 28:5-6; 39:1-2).

4. Revelation contains over 30 passages that demand its imminent, radically near, fulfillment. We see such statements as “must shortly take place,” “soon,” “near,” and “about to happen” (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20; etc.). The wrath of God and the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17; 14:19; 15:1, 7; 16:1; 16:19; 19:15), is consistent with Jesus’ astounding condemnation of his fellow Jews in Matthew 23, which He insisted would be judged for all the righteous blood ever shed on earth—IN THEIR GENERATION. This judgment was because of their sins, failure to accept Him as Messiah, and their participation with the Roman authorities in Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion (Matthew 27:25). There is nothing post AD 95 that could qualify as such an imminent (“must shortly take place”) judgment. Only a pre-AD 70 fulfillment (prior to the fall and judgment of Old Covenant Israel) makes any sense. Case closed about Babylon and the Great Judgment.

5. In Revelation 11:1, John was told to measure the temple. This implies that the temple was still standing when the book was written, thus prior to AD 70. While some argue that this is about a spiritual temple, it would be a bizarre instruction if given at a time when the magnificent physical temple was just a bunch of rubble. And of particular note, the destruction of the physical temple in AD 70 is not mentioned by John in Revelation as a past event. It is incomprehensible that, if John, a Christian Jew, was writing after AD 70, he would not have mentioned the destruction of the temple, it being the center of the Jewish faith―and its destruction a prophecy of Jesus (Matthew 24:1-2).

6. Revelation 11:2 says, “They will trample the holy city for forty-two months.” This statement is consistent with Jesus’ statement to his contemporaries: “When YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you know that its desolation is near.” (Luke 21:20). Thus, some of those living in the first century would witness this. It cannot be coincidence that forty-two months is exactly the period of the Roman army’s final assault on Israel—from February AD 67 to August AD 70. So, Revelation must have been written prior.

7. Revelation 1:7 tells us whom God’s judgment was against. It reads: “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of Him.” This clearly identifies Jesus’ crucifiers as the target. “All the tribes of the earth” is a reference to the twelve tribes of Israel, which means Old Covenant Israel. Interestingly, some astounding external evidence comes from Josephus and other ancient historians who reported chariots in the sky above Jerusalem during the start of Jewish-Roman War in AD 66. This fulfilled the visibility requirement. “Coming on clouds” is Hebraic idiomatic apocalyptic language from the Old Testament, where God “came” in judgment against his enemies (examples: Psalm 18:7-12; Isaiah 19). Thus, this poetic judgment language (“Hebraic apocalyptic language”) affirms that the Lord would come in a not-so-literal sense against apostate Israel, as predicted in numerous New Testament passages, such as Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 21:33-45; 22:1-14; 23:29-24:2; Luke 21:5-33; etc. Similar to judgments against Israel in Old Testament times (722 BC and 586 BC), God used an opposing army as his instrument.

8. Daniel was told to seal up the vision for it was a long way off (Daniel 12:4). By contrast, in Revelation, John was told not to seal up the vision because the time for fulfillment was near (Rev 22:10). These two passages are book ends. Clearly, the inescapable meaning is Revelation shouldn’t be sealed because Daniel’s vision was about to be fulfilled. That had to be at the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem and the temple “when the power of the holy people would be shattered” and “the burnt offering taken away” (Daniel 12:7, 11). Again, Revelation was written prior.

9. The existence of only seven churches in Asia Minor also indicates an early date for Revelation. Some futurists claim, for example, that the church in Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) did not exist in the 60’s AD, so Revelation could not have been written at that time. But that assumption has been adequately refuted by scholars. Here are three: (1) Edward Stevens’ book Final Decade Before the End pages 87-89. (2) Kenneth Gentry’s book Before Jerusalem Fell, third edition, pages 324-329. (3) Don Preston’s book Who Is this Babylon, pages 12-13. The gist of the argument is this: The church at Ephesus was founded (or at least nurtured) by Paul in the early to mid-50’s AD (Acts 18:19). The church at Smyrna, only 30 miles from Ephesus, was probably founded in AD 58 or soon thereafter by the members of the Ephesus church, after Paul had finished his third journey. The other churches were founded in this time-frame. There was a devastating earthquake in the area about AD 60, but there was time for the cities to be rebuilt to include all seven cities of Revelation. Then, Paul states in 2 Timothy 1:15 (Paul’s last letter, written between AD 64 and 68), “All who are in Asia turned away from me.” This implies that the Christian churches of Asia were dissolving. The Neronic persecution (AD 64-68) was a major cause of this falling away. But by AD 95 the church was being rebuilt and there would have been many more congregations in Asia than just seven. We can reasonably conclude that the only time all seven churches existed was in the early 60’s AD.


10. There are six separate traditions from the early church that have Revelation being written prior to AD 70. For example, an ancient New Testament—The Syriac version (called the Peshitta)—says the following on the title page of the Book of Revelation: “The Revelation, which was given by God to the Evangelist John on the island of Patmos, upon which he was cast by Nero Caesar.”

11. Another reason to believe the Book of Revelation was written at the earlier date is there is a question about John’s life after AD 70. Papias (AD 60-130) wrote that John was killed by the Jews. John’s martyrdom would have been when the Jews had the authority and means to have accomplished the execution—before AD 70. Actually, there is internal biblical evidence about the martyrdom of John (and his brother James). In Matthew 20:22-23 and Mark 10:38-39 Jesus implies that John and his brother James would drink the cup of martyrdom that He was about to drink! Further evidence comes from silence in the historical record about John. If John had survived AD 70, he would have been a leader in the church, but history is silent.

12. However, an opposing view about John is from Jerome (AD 340-420), who noted in his writings that John was plunged into boiling oil by Nero. John escaped that torture, and Jerome stated that John was apparently seen in AD 96, and that he was so old and infirm that “he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.” It is difficult to imagine John could write Revelation in AD 96 or be able to speak to many nations and many kings at any late date since he was already elderly and infirm. It is equally difficult to imagine the Roman authorities would arrest a decrepit very old man.

13. Tertullian, an early church father who lived from 145-220 AD, seems to place John’s banishment to Patmos at the same time as the martyrdom of Peter and Paul, who we know were killed during the reign of Nero (prior to his own death in 68 AD). In his writing, “Exclusion of Heretics,” speaking of the history of Rome, he had this to say: “. . . on which the Apostles poured out all their doctrine, with their blood: where Peter had a like Passion with the Lord; where Paul hath for his crown the same death with John; where the Apostle John was plunged into boiling oil, and suffered nothing, and was afterwards banished to an island.”

14. The Muratorian Canon (c. AD 170) is the earliest surviving list of canonical books. In this important manuscript we read: “The blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name.” This demands a dating of John’s Revelation prior to the time that Paul was beheaded, no later than AD 67 or 68, and probably earlier than his letters.

15. Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) in his writing “Miscellanies (7:17)” said: “The teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, ends with Nero.” (Again, Nero died in AD 68.)

16. The book “The Shepherd of Hermas” was well known by early church fathers and was often considered canonical. This suggests its composition to have been around the time of the apostles or shortly thereafter, as later books were not considered canonical. The book may have been written by the person Paul references in Romans 16:14. The book draws from Revelation, which implies a date for Revelation much earlier than the AD 95 time-frame, and probably before AD 70.

17. The apostle Peter wrote about the coming New Heaven and New Earth (2 Peter 3), reminding his readers that other apostles also wrote about it (2 Peter 3:2). The other apostle to have written most prominently about this was John in Revelation 21. Thus, it is probable that Peter used Revelation as source material. Since Peter was martyred under Nero no later than AD 68, that places the writing of Revelation earlier than Peter’s death. See my articles about the New Heaven and New Earth (and other topics about Revelation) in section B here:

18. The late date is based largely on a third-hand ambiguous statement by Irenaeus in around AD 175-185, about either John or the book of Revelation having been “seen” during Domitian’s reign. Numerous scholars have questioned just what Irenaeus meant, and have also pointed out that Irenaeus was a sloppy historian. As stated by Edward E. Stevens, “Irenaeus was seemingly ignorant about a lot of things (e.g. Neronic persecution, death of Paul, Peter, and John during the Neronic persecution). He thought Jesus lived to over 40 years of age. He was clueless about the fulfillments at AD 70. Thus, he shows no evidence of having been taught by John or any of the other twelve apostles. So, it is no surprise that Irenaeus chronologically misplaced a whole bunch of things, not merely his confusion over Nero vs. Domitian.” In the same work (Heresies 5.3.1), Irenaeus spoke of “ancient copies” of Revelation, which leads to a contradictory conclusion.

19. There is potential confusion over who Irenaeus referred to with his reference to Domitian. Domitian was the Roman emperor from AD 81 to 96. But Domitius was the family name of Nero. While most scholars seem skeptical about the following opinion by Robert Young, it is worth considering based on the scholarly reputation of Young. (He was the author of Young’s Analytical Concordance as well as Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible.) In his commentary on Revelation, written around 1885, he said:
“It was written in Patmos about A.D. 68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in AD 175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou – i.e., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Dimitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the early date.”
So, Irenaeus may have simply been wrong, or something may have been lost in the copying or translation of his work. There are other possibilities concerning the Irenaeus quote. Domitian was the son of Vespasian (and brother of Titus). Vespasian was elected Emperor in December 69. But he was not in Rome at the time. It took Vespasian six months to make his way back to Rome from Jerusalem and Egypt, where he was securing foodstuff for his soldiers. During this half year, Domitian assumed the role temporarily as Caesar. So, if Irenaeus was indeed saying that John was writing Revelation during the reign of Domitian, he may have been referring to this period in AD 69. Also, there are reports that Irenaeus confused John the Apostle with John the Presbyter. Confounding the problem, almost all late daters rely on the unreliable and confusing Irenaeus quotation.

20. Kenneth Gentry lists 136 authors that hold to a pre-AD 70 dating. See Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation (Powder Springs, Georgia: American Vision, 1998, pgs. 30-38). Gentry, considered by some to be the most authoritative author today about the dating of Revelation, discusses the Irenaeus issue (as well as a statement by Origen sometimes used to support the late date), in his book and in the articles below.

Conclusion: We should always place Scripture above non-scriptural sources. There are no convincing internal evidences for the late date of Revelation, and the external sources for the late date, upon examination, are flawed. While certain of the above points can be debated, the totality of the evidence strongly supports the early dating of Revelation.


For more on eschatology, see my website:

17 posted on 05/26/2021 5:56:09 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: Craftmore

//And of course Jesus came in AD 70?//


While this view may be different from what most churches teach, we must be faithful to the Bible. We must accept what it says, and not what someone else tells us it says. Jesus made numerous statements about the timing of his Parousia (“Presence”). How we understand these determines whether Jesus was a true prophet or a false prophet.

Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they had finished going through the towns of Israel. (Matthew 10:23).

He told his disciples that his return would be while some of them were still alive (Matthew 16:27-28).

He told the Jewish leaders that THEY would personally see his return (Matthew 26:64; cf. Matthew 23:29-39).

He told his disciples that He would return in their generation (Luke 21:22, 32).

He told Peter and John that John would witness his return (John 21:22).

He told his disciples that all of the events surrounding his Second Coming were “about to happen” (Luke 21:36, Young’s Literal Translation).

He told John that the prophesied events “MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE” and the time of his return was “near” and “soon” (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20).

Paul told the Thessalonians to whom he wrote that they would be alive at the Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 17).

The writer of Hebrews said that Jesus’ return would happen in a “very, very little while” and “without delay” (Hebrews 10:37).

James said the Second Coming of Jesus was “at hand” (James 5:7-8).

How could this be any clearer? Do you realize that there are over 100 passages in the New Testament like these—demanding that the Second Coming was imminent in the first century? And there is NO mention of a far distant fulfillment of the last-days events! Out of dozens of passages about the Second Coming, there is only one that does not have a time-limitation of the first century (while some of Jesus’ contemporaries would still be alive―namely Acts 1:9-11.

This is a serious apologetics question. Perhaps the most persistent charge against Christianity is that Jesus and the New Testament writers were false prophets. This charge is made by Muslims, Jews, and atheists. Indeed, MOST CHRISTIANS ADMIT that Jesus and his followers thought He would return in their literal generation. Were Jesus and his disciples false prophets?! If so, they were not inspired! CS Lewis said this:

“Say what you like, we shall be told, the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things are done.’ And He was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.”

If Jesus and the writers of the New Testament were true prophets, the only explanation is the preterist view. Jesus came IN JUDGMENT against apostate Israel in AD 70, similar to how God came IN JUDGMENT against his enemies in the Old Testament.

After years of studying this question, including considering all objections, I finally decided to believe Jesus. IS YOUR CHURCH’S TEACHINGS ABOUT THE LAST DAYS CONSISTENT WITH THAT OF JESUS? For an explanation, see my articles here:

18 posted on 05/26/2021 5:58:56 PM PDT by grumpa
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To: nickcarraway

“Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:35 ~ most scholar’s place Matthew as written between 80-90 AD, however, there is significant evidence of being written between 64-70 AD, )

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10 ~ Most scholar’s place the origin of 2 Peter between 60-100 AD. Keep in mind however, Peter reveals himself as the author, and Peter was gruesomely put to death, likely in 68 AD)

19 posted on 05/26/2021 5:59:01 PM PDT by patriotfury ((May the fleas of a thousand camels occupy mo' ham mads tents!) )
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To: grumpa
. I am persuaded that Revelation was at least mostly fulfilled at the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD 70.

These multi-application examples are called types. An example was Jonah was a type of Christ in that he spent 3 days in a tomb of sorts. The final end days have not happened because Christ has not returned. When He returns, people will be caught up in the air to meet Him and the earth as we know it is incinerated (Gods Climate Change). A new Earth and Jerusalem will replace this sinful polluted one.

20 posted on 05/26/2021 5:59:55 PM PDT by BipolarBob (This is my chainsaw. There are many like it but this one is mine.)
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