The Scriptures Are Amazing

RR ^ | 12/13/20 | Daymond Duck

[Cronos]

MHGinTN The parable of the ten virgins was given by Jesus to ISRAEL. It refers to the end of the seven years of Jacob’s Troubles. That parable was not given to the Church. To see what WAS given to the Church look into all of Paul’s letters.

Mhg, you haven't read the bible have you?

The ten virgins bit starts with Matthew 23 where He is addressing His disciples - who were Jews and followers of Christ. Those are not mutually exclusive

"To Israel"? Nah, this was addressed to His listeners not to "Israel".

Jews in the 1st century after the destruction of the temple you had only two sects left - the Jesus-movement (i.e. the Christians) and the Pharisees (what we call Jews today)

The parable of the 10 virgins was given to the followers of Jesus - about the upcoming coming of the Kingdom of Heaven

And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God when it has come with power.”

Mark 9:1

the Kingdom of Heaven was inaugurated at the Pentecost - a Kingdom where no separation of Jew and Greek.

[Cronos]

RWC Protestant continue to move downwards (IE Evangelical Christianity) -- the graph posted by Skypilot does not differentiate between different types of Protestant Christianity. It doesn't even indicate if Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are included in the graph creators definition of Protestant.

The mainline protestant groups are declining rapidly, we know that. But there does not seem to be a decline or if there is, there is a minor decline in various groups calling themselves "evangelical" - again that's a very vague term.

[Cronos]

My opinion, basis John NOT indicating that the Elders are to be understood as symbolic, and basis who does the singing in the following verses, is that the 24 Elders are not symbols, or stand-ins, but 24 individual persons.

Apoc 4:4 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

The book of Revelation as a whole is highly symbolic - right from the "seven spirits around the throne" indicating the ONE Holy Spirit (as 7 is the number of completeness - like Jesus the lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes), so too chapter 4 is symbolic - the 24 elders represents the saints

[Philsworld]

Oh and just to others who might be shocked at the above posts - these are just the words of MHGinTN to me and others when the Bible proves Him wrong.

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Cronos is correct. I have also been on the receiving end of unkind language from the good Christian, MHGinTN, as have many others. Here’s just a small sample as we go down memory lane:

Cult-minded dupe
Liar
I find you thoroughly disgusting, ADVENTIST cult follower
Dolt
Dead soul
You spittle deceit
Stop pinging me to you delusions, you horrid cult creature.

He may have also called me a half eaten, rotton, putrid, cult infested, Spawn of Satan Scoobie snack, but I can’t recall for sure. If he didn’t, I apologize to everyone for maligning his good name /s

[Philsworld]

I’ve always thought that the 24 elders were those who were raised from their graves at the resurrection of Jesus, to testify of that fact in Jerusalem. It’s speculation on my part and we won’t know until we get to heaven. (I wish I could be 100% positive like MHGinTN always is)

I also read the exchanges between you and MHGinTN on this thread and I appreciate your logic. Well done.

[SheepWhisperer]

Your article reminded me...

“EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT”
By Josh McDowell

An excellent reference pertaining to bible’s historical accuracy, in both higher and lower textual criticism, the prophecies which have been fulfilled with compete precision and the knowledge that Jesus is who He says He is as foretold hundreds before He appeared, then walked among men and died for us.

A great read for anyone who’s faith needs building, written by a man who’s original intent was to disprove Bible accuracy, but came to faith instead.

Recommend

[Cronos]

I have no idea what is a preferist or not

The mark of the beast is

Chapter 13 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, [l]to be given a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 and he decrees that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

chapter 14 9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [e]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [f]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [g]whoever receives the mark of his name.”

As I pointed out - this is the parody of the Sign of the Cross, the Mark or Seal of God

Note that in Chapter 13, John pauses to say in verse 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate .. -- this is to clarify the symbolism for Christians of the 1st century

The mark is internal - whether you Act (on the hand) and DO (forehead) according to the beast's teachings.

[Philsworld]

The Mark of the Beast is about worship:

The Mark of the Beast is about Commandment keeping:

The Mark of the Beast is SPECIFICALLY about the 4th commandment:

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and WORSHIP him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

(compare the 4th commandment language: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.)

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus Christ is your Creator. Worship him for that reason. The Mark of the Beast will be about the 4th commandment. Here's something to think about.....People who worship the Beast won't be worshiping on the 7th-day-Sabbath. What is the self professed mark of authority of the Catholic Church? Yep, it's that they claim to have changed Sabbath to Sunday.

[Mom MD]

certainly your interpretation. Most believe in a literal implantable mark likely a chip. A preterist is one who believes the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled already

[Philsworld]

The mark is internal - whether you Act (on the hand) and DO (forehead) according to the beast’s teachings.

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You are correct Cronos. Now apply it to my post above.

[Philsworld]

As I pointed out - this is the parody of the Sign of the Cross, the Mark or Seal of God

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The Seal of God is the 7th-day-Sabbath

[Mom MD]

In your viewpoint

[Cronos]

The thing is that this was the interpretation from the 1st century - which is why the Jesus-movement Jews escaped to Pellas

Remember that Revelation 12 shows you what happened in heaven t the first advent of Christ

Revelation 13 starts with the dragon on the sand of the seashore - so on both land and water. Land is a symbol for local (Israel) and water for gentile powers. The dragon is of both, but the dragon's minions are

1. The beast coming out of the sea - so a gentile power, the Roman empire (it is the 4th beast) AND "a beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb" - from the earth so the local, Jewish Sanhedrin

   This ends with the enigmatc 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a [m]man; and his number is [n]six hundred and sixty-six. so it looks highly unlikely to be some message for 2000 years later.

[Mom MD]

prophecy often has double fulfillment and many of the prophecies in revelation have not yet been fulfilled unless one twists scripture unrecognizably. You have your view i have mine

[Cronos]

The term preterist or premilleniarian etc. upon reading it has no basis in the text nor in orthodoxy as a whole.

The Apocalypse is to be understood as a book of the 1st century written before the destruction of the temple. To put to this the 19th century philosophy is shoe-horning

I believe in the future Resurrection of the Dead and Judgement, so as I understand it, these are not "preterist"

So what do you make of Matthew 24:34 when Christ says “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Seems like if I was a disciple standing there, I would take it as Christ meaning that he would return in my generation?

the Lord DID “return to” Jerusalem within that generation—except He returned in judgment. Jerusalem fell and the Temple was destroyed; so everything Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 came to pass just as He said, within a generation after His death.

We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.

hrist will raise us up "on the last day"; but it is also true that, in a certain way, we have already risen with Christ. For, by virtue of the Holy Spirit, Christian life is already now on earth a participation in the death and Resurrection of Christ

United with Christ by Baptism, believers already truly participate in the heavenly life of the risen Christ, nourished with his body in the Eucharist, we already belong to the Body of Christ. When we rise on the last day we "also will appear with him in glory."

We have been living in the last days since the time of Christ Himself -- According to Hebrew 1 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

The last days efers to the time of the New Covenant, the gathering together of God's people in the Church, which is on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom

[Cronos]

that is true that prophecy often has double fulfilment. And in the book of revelation there is no pre tribulation rapture - we are told of the lamb's victory over the harlot-city of Jerusalem that rode the beast from the sea (the Roman empire) and was ultimately consumed by the Roman empire. This then frees the Jesus-movement from the temple

And this is what we see historically - after the destruction of the temple, 2nd temple Judaism died and two daughter religions (or sects) survived

The Jesus-movement which stated from 33 AD that there was no need for the sacrifices in the temple anymore due to the supreme sacrifice of Jesus

The Pharisees who created a new religion - rabbinical Judaism that forsook the sacrifices

[HKMk23]

“The book of Revelation as a whole is highly symbolic - right from the “seven spirits around the throne” ...

Indeed it is. Seven Lamps burn before the Throne, and John tells us what they symbolize. This has been my constant refrain: when John introduces a symbolic thing, he says so; he tells what that symbolic thing stands for. Given that, I’m of the opinion that we step onto thin ice taking things as symbolic where he doesn’t say they are.

So, case in point, John describes that “Seven flaming torches, which are the seven spirits of God, were burning in front of the throne.” (Revelation 4:5 NET)
https://bible.com/bible/107/rev.4.5.NET

John interprets the symbol upon introducing it.

“...the 24 elders represents the saints.”

If so, we ought to expect John to tell us that, but he does not; introducing them thus:

“In a circle around the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on those thrones were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white clothing and had golden crowns on their heads.”
(Revelation 4:4 NET)
https://bible.com/bible/107/rev.4.4.NET

I know many do otherwise, but I think when once we begin taking things as symbols that we are not told are symbolic, we open the door to “flexigesis”; an unmoored hermeneutic used in support of the ever popular “evangelastic” which permits making scripture say whatever we like.

As I have previously asked, so I ask you: are you aware of other scriptural references that clearly bolster the conclusion that these Elders represent the saints severally?

[HKMk23]

Lots of conjecture about the identity of the Elders. I don’t want to assert that they are symbols since John doesn’t say they are, but I think it would make sense them being The Twelve Sons of Jacob and The Twelve Disciples (after Judas Iscariot was replaced); 12 central figures from the old covenant, and 12 from the new. And that idea is not uncommon.

You recall the mother of James and John asking Jesus to grant that her sons sit to either side of him in the Resurrection. Jesus defers to The Father saying the decision is His to make, but that response also doesn’t dispel the idea that there will, in fact, be thrones there to sit on. So, a little tidbit there to mull and ponder. Certainly, we’ll see.

The crowns the Elders wear — the word is also used in Rev. 3:11 and indicates a full or partial wreath of leaves, or of gold wrought in that form, given to the victor of a contest. So, whether these are individuals who have been honored to sit in these thrones, or whether they symbolize all the saints, the crowns they wear are the same sort the redeemed possess in Rev. 3:11.

I would also observe that these Elders being individuals, such as the 12 disciples and the 12 sons of Jacob, doesn’t negate that they are representatives from among, though not the symbolic embodiment of, all the redeemed from both the Old and New Covenants. In that sense, the argument about “are they all of us Redeemed or are they individuals” has something of a “yes” answer.

John saw 24 men; he did not see 24 billion redeemed symbolized as 24 men, but the 24 are from among the billions, and are, therefore, representative of them all. Similar to how we have Representatives in government. They aren’t us; they are literal, separate individuals from among us. They represent us, but are not any sort of mystic embodiment of us.

“I also read the exchanges between you and MHGinTN on this thread and I appreciate your logic. Well done.”

Not easy, but thank you. It isn’t easy to persist with a specific point of inquiry and, as they say, drive it to ground. But it’s necessary to gain understanding; every scriptural idea must have a scriptural foundation, not a conjectural one.

Eschatology is a divided world, and everyone tends to be very nearly welded to their ideas. So that makes it hard for debate of disputed points to be completely objective. I mean, how do you take an idea that is near and dear to your heart, and hold it at arm’s length for objective examination? People tend to be emotionally vested in whether their view is being supported or not, and that makes for more tension than is necessary. And that tends to throttle discussion, and inhibit people’s willingness to more freely join in and converse about the topic. That’s sad, because there are about a hundred and fifty chapters in the Bible that touch on eschatology; it’s a big topic in scripture, and oughta be a big conversation in The Church. But the devil’s work of dividing us up into these Camps, if you will, has turned it from a big conversation into a big argument, so many shy away rather than participating and learning. Ultimately, I fear that Souls will be eternally lost because of that.

[Cronos]

"As I have previously asked, so I ask you: are you aware of other scriptural references that clearly bolster the conclusion that these Elders represent the saints severally?"

Yes, 1 Chronicles 24

7 Now the first lot came out for Jehoiarib, the second for Jedaiah, 8 the third for Harim, the fourth for Seorim, 9 the fifth for Malchijah, the sixth for Mijamin, 10 the seventh for Hakkoz, the eighth for Abijah, 11 the ninth for Jeshua, the tenth for Shecaniah, 12 the eleventh for Eliashib, the twelfth for Jakim, 13 the thirteenth for Huppah, the fourteenth for Jeshebeab, 14 the fifteenth for Bilgah, the sixteenth for Immer, 15 the seventeenth for Hezir, the eighteenth for Happizzez, 16 the nineteenth for Pethahiah, the twentieth for Jehezkel, 17 the twenty-first for Jachin, the twenty-second for Gamul, 18 the twenty-third for Delaiah, and the twenty-fourth for Maaziah. 19 These were their offices for their ministry when they entered the house of the Lord according to the ordinance given to them through their father Aaron, just as the Lord God of Israel had commanded him.

[Cronos]

So, case in point, John describes that “Seven flaming torches, which are the seven spirits of God, were burning in front of the throne.” (Revelation 4:5 NET)

But this is not a description, rather a symbolism as you see in Apoc 1:4

Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who [c]is to come, and from the [d]seven spirits who are before His throne,

Grace comes FROM God the father and FROM the seven spirits -- Grace is not given by angels but from God Himself, so the 7 spirits are the Holy Spirit