Posted on 12/13/2020 9:04:57 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
So, now ya know your Abyss from a hole in the ground, you can navigate The Apocalypse with the advantage of knowing beforehand what's coming next. I suggest an even BETTER advantage would be navigating it knowing Jesus, too, since that's the ENTIRE point, and the only survivable position.
You are a false teacher trying to sell The Redeemed the 'get ready to go though the Apocalypse' fraud. The redeemed are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation. I have shown you from the Revelation of John that The Redeemed are in Heaven when The Lamb takes the seven sealed scroll. You don't want to see that so you argue on the periphery as if your persistent clamour negates what John wrote when he heard 'the new song' sung by The Redeemed. Your sneaky methodology is more sophisticated than most non pretrib teachers, but it is transparent, too.
Where are the Redeemed when Jesus opens the seven sealed scroll to usher in the tribulation?
“The redeemed are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation.”
Of course not! Do not conflate the wrath of the Seven Bowls with the judgments of the Seven Seals and Seven Trumpets.
“I have shown you from the Revelation of John that The Redeemed are in Heaven when The Lamb takes the seven sealed scroll.”
You have made the claim, and cited a couple of verses, but you have not shown how they support that point. I have asked you to explain.
“You don’t want to see that...”
I’ll be happy to see whatever you can cogently explain. You cannot expect me to buy in basis inferences.
“...so you argue on the periphery as if your persistent clamour negates what John wrote when he heard ‘the new song’ sung by The Redeemed.”
My repeated requests for you to clearly explain step-by-step — as ought to be expected — how the texts you cite support your claims negate nothing John saw or wrote.
You have not clarified how you read about David casting lots to appoint 24 families for Temple service, and conclude that the Redeemed are the post Calvary expression of these families. I suppose they could be, but you haven’t laid out how you figured it out.
You have not clarified how you conclude that the 24 Elders of Revelation are symbolic of the Redeemed, not literal figures when John doesn’t say they’re symbolic.
We got here by you claiming the symbolism of the Elders to be a proof-text that the Redeemed are no longer on Earth when Jesus received the scroll and begins breaking the seals. One wouldn’t think it unusual that you might be expected to thoroughly ground such a key text. Yet, when I ask you to do so, rather than clear explanation I get insults.
What brotherhood in Christ is this that you have no patience to fully explain the linchpin of your belief that the Redeemed are with Christ prior to the breaking of the First Seal?
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You [JESUS; The Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world] are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
how dare you throw scripture into the Mix... I am shocked!!!
rofl...
LOL ... better to be shocked than confused, eh?LOL
“I don’t trust it nor the rapidity with which they tossed caution to the wind for it’s approval. I thought the normal process for vaccine approvals is years if not a decade?“
There are lab tools that allowed work to be done in weeks that used to take years.
It’s like comparing a computer from 1989 to a MacBook Air of 2020.
Trump cleared unneeded red tape out of the way with Operation Warp Speed project
pssst... that's your line repeated back to you :)
oh and repeating this back to ye, Has there been a diagnosis of Aspergers for you? STOP PUTTING MY NAME IN THE “To” line, false teacher. You are doing the father of lies business with your pre tribulation rapture lies.
Oh and just to others who might be shocked at the above posts - these are just the words of MHGinTN to me and others when the Bible proves Him wrong.
31 “You, O king, were watching and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and [ag]of extraordinary radiance, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was [ah]awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its chest and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, and its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You [ai]continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces [aj]all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the entire earth.This ties in to Daniel 7
first kingdom 37 You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the [ak]kingdom, the power, the strength, and the honor; 38 and wherever the sons of mankind live, or the animals of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has handed them over to you and has made you ruler over them all. You are the head of gold.
Second Kingdom - Achaemenid empire -
Third kingdom - Macedonian empire
4th Kingdom - the Roman empire
During the fourth kingdom (not a "revived kingdom" - that is not indicated in the text) you have the Divine Kingdom of Heaven - Christianity - coming at Pentecost
. 3 And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion but had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and set up on two feet like a man; a human [e]mind also was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and they said this to it: ‘Arise, devour much meat!’ 6 After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its [f]back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed, and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.and to rev 13
2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne, and great authority. 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been [b]fatally wounded, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
Daniel 2 - statue | Daniel 7 - beasts | Rev 13 |
first kingdom: Babylon: "You are the head of gold" - neo-Babylonian empire | "like a lion" v 4 | "a mouth like a lion" v2 |
second kingdom: Achaemenid empire: v39 | "like a bear with three ribs in its mouth" v5 - three ribs: Persia, Medea and Babylonia | "its feet were like a bear" v 2 |
third kingdom - Macedonian empire - "bronze" | "like a leopard" v6 - for the swiftness of conquest | "like a leopard" v2 |
Fourth beast - Roman principate(743 BC to 311 AD) - iron then iron mixed with clay | "it had ten horns" v 7 | "with ten horns" v1 -- horns were the symbol of power. 10 signifying power and 10 rulers - Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero,Galba,Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian |
The author is lying
What did Jesus say in Matthew 23 - Matthew 24
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the [ag]temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.Note in Matthew 24
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, [y]recognize that [z]He is near, right at the [aa]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matthew | |||
English: Douay-Rheims | Latin: Vulgata Clementina | Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000) | |
34. | Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. | Amen dico vobis, quia non præteribit generatio hæc, donec omnia hæc fiant. | αμην λεγω υμιν ου μη παρελθη η γενεα αυτη εως αν παντα ταυτα γενηται |
NOTE: THIS generation listening to Jesus in 30 AD -- not some generation 1918 years later.
A generation is for 40 years. So your pre-trib rapture should have come in 1988 - hint, it didn't
Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" many times. It is used in fact just BEFORE the Olivet discourse in Matt 23:36 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
And He repeats in Matt 24:34 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
In both cases, Jesus is referring to His own generation - that of people living in 33 AD
Furthermore, refer to
Matt 24:9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. --> they will hand YOU, kill YOU etc --> Jesus is referring to those listening to Him THEN, in 30 to 33 AD
This is similar to Mark 13:9 But [e]be on your guard; for they will hand you over to the [f]courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them -- you think Christians will be flogged in synagogues in 2021?
The generation of the fig tree was those in 33 AD -- and within 40 years, the temple was destroyed
Note that the Olivet discourse is in the synoptic gospels but not in the gospel of John. WHY?
The synoptic gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of the temple in 70 AD (like the book of Revelation), but the Gospel of john was written later, in 90 AD
John wrote none of these things because the readers had already witnessed the fulfilment of the Olivet discourse -- the generation of the fig tree had already passed away by 90 AD when the gospel of John was written
Ours is NOT the generation of the fig tree -- that generation died out in the first century
More lies from the author
Dan 9:26 says Then after the sixty-two weeks, the [ab]Messiah will be cut off and have [ac]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ad]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ae]there will be war; desolations are determined
Firstly - absolutely NOTHING about Europe
Secondly, the Roman Empire covers a completely different geography from the EU
The EU has countries such as Ireland, Netherlands, Poland, Denmark, Scandanavia, the Baltics etc. that were NEVER in the Roman empire
As you well and accurately note, Rev. 5:9-10 has the 24 Elders and Four Living Creatures singing a New Song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.” — NKJV
I absolutely understand that you claim the Redeemed are in Heaven in Rev. 5; represented in the scene by the 24 Elders, and I understand how you get that from the words of this song, and this is what it all comes down to, and it’s the root of our disagreement, and it arises out of the various Greek manuscripts supporting which words get used in English.
Your thesis comes to rest on the use of the word “us” in verse 10, which drives the use of “us” in verse 9 and “we” in verse 10. But key manuscripts — the majority, in fact — use “them” in the Greek, which drives the use of “them” and “they” in verse 10, and the use of a Direct Object other than “us” in verse 9.
The New English Translation has the most comprehensive footnotes addressing this dilemma:
“You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and at the cost of your own blood you have purchased for God persons[ab] from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You have appointed them[ae] as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” — NET
[ab] - The word “persons” is not in the Greek text, but is implied. Direct objects were often omitted in Greek when clear from the context.
[ae] - The vast majority of witnesses have αὐτούς (autous, “them”) here, while the Textus Receptus reads ἡμᾶς (hēmas, “us”) with insignificant support (pc gig vgcl sa Prim Bea). There is no question that the original text read αὐτούς here.
Since the Elders are singing “...you have purchased for God PERSONS from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You have appointed THEM as a kingdom and priests...” the Elders AREN’T including themselves among those purchased for God, or among those appointed as kings and priests.
This makes sense, because the Four Living Creatures are also singing these same words, and there’s no question about them being purchased for God, or appointed as kings and priests; they’re not.
With that established, a cascade of things fall into place:
The 24 Elders and Four Living Creatures are not singing about themselves in verses 9 and 10.
Therefore, the 24 Elders are not including themselves among the Redeemed.
Therefore, the 24 Elders also do not symbolize the Redeemed, which explains why John doesn’t say they are symbolic.
Therefore, the Redeemed are not present in this scene before God’s Throne in Rev. 5 watching The Lamb break the Seals.
Correct.
And the Mark of the beast you need to read especially in context of Rev 7:3
saying, “Do not harm the earth, or the sea, or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”and rev 14:1
144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.This is of God, jsut as the Lamb is of God -
Rev 5 6 And I saw [c]between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are [d]the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earthNow read the Mark of the beast and also Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb,
And you see that the Beast brought a parody of the lamb and the Mark of the beast is a parody of the lamb
The Mark of GOD on the other hand is the seal, the Tau, the sign of the Cross. the mark of the beast was the coin of Nero
remember The verses in the book of the Apocalypse says
Apoc 13:11 Then I saw another beast come up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lambs but spoke like a dragon.This beast with two horns "like a lamb" but which "spoken like a dragon" is Satan's parody of the lamb.
12 It wielded all the authority of the first beast in its sight and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.
13 It performed great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of everyone.
14 It deceived the inhabitants of the earth with the signs it was allowed to perform in the sight of the first beast, telling them to make an image for the beast who had been wounded by the sword and revived.
15 It was then permitted to breathe life into the beasts image, so that the beasts image could speak and [could] have anyone who did not worship it put to death.
16 It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads,
17 so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beasts name or the number that stood for its name.
18 [b]Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number that stands for a person. His number is six hundred and sixty-six.
A key note is the difference between where the beasts arise -- the first beast arises out of the sea - the sea indicates gentile nations.
This parody of the Lamb represents corrupt leaders within Jerusalem. This parody is later identified by John as the "false prophet" in Rev 16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
As the "false prophet" this parody sets itself up against God's prophets in the days leading to 69 AD.
The false religious leaders who led the persecution of the Christ-sect of Jews in the days leading up to the destruction of the temple in 69 AD are indicated here
The mark of the beast is again a parody of the SIGN on the believers as we read in the letter to the Philadelphians -- the SIGN or Tau being the Hebrew letter which looks like a cross - so the sign of the cross as the christians did was the sign of God
The mark of the beast is linked to the number of the beast - as "wisdom is needed here... it stands for a person..." -- to reveal the identity of the beast to the Christians while hiding it from outsiders, St john used Gematria, the rabbinic numering system for names. When the Gematrian numbers of Nero's official name in Hebrew are added together (50 + 200 + 6+50 + 100 + 60 + 200) they total 666. The Christians KNew that 666 is the number of Nero
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Remember back to the Mark of the Lamb alluded to in the 6th letter to the churches, to the Philadelphians - God's mark is mentioned specifically in the sixth seal of the initial vision (7:3). In Heaven God's faithful "servants shall worship Him; they shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads"..22:4
The mark of the beast is Satan's parody of the sign of the cross. The sign on the forehead talks of loyalty and that on the hand of what we do with the loyalty
We see the same in 14:9 "anyone who worships the beast and its image" is shown as "receiving a mark on his forehead or on his hand"
Nero is the human whose symbol is 666, who demanded worship of himself.
This is the only time in history when the Church was persecuted by both the beast (the Roman empire) and the harlot (Jerusalem authorities)
ST John twice pauses to say "here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints" (13:10, 14:12). The first time, this is following a statement about not being in armed conflict against the beast "if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain" (13:10)
The second time is not to have the mark of the beast -- to be clear the admonition agians thte mark of the beast is "do not worship the earthly power of the roman empire - THAT is the mark of the beast
And just how was the coin of nero implanted on the hand or forehead? I get it you are a preferist, but that is not what is being discussed here
revelation doesn't have or mention
In the 8th century BC, Rezin of Aram had been a tributary of Tiglath-Pileser III, the king of Assyria. In c. 732 BC, he allied himself with Pekah, the king of Israel, to attack Ahaz, the king of Judah. However, Ahaz appealed to Tiglath-Pileser III for help. This the Assyrian king obliged, after Judah paid tribute to the Assyrian king. (2 Kings 16:7–9) As a result, Tiglath-Pileser III sacked Damascus and annexed Aram. According to 2 Kings 16:9, the population was deported and Rezin executed. Tiglath-Pileser also records this act in one of his inscriptions.
Dude - it happenED
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