Posted on 03/04/2020 7:44:23 AM PST by Gamecock
All cults and manmade religions are based in “works righteousness.” Their adherents believe they have to do something to earn their way to heaven—pray five times a day, lie on beds of nails, do good works, fast, repeat certain prayers, etc. They do this because they are ignorant of God’s standard of righteousness. This is why they need the Law of God to show them that the leap they are trying to make is infinitely wider than the Grand Canyon. However, before you take them through the Law, help them see that they are indeed trusting in “works” for salvation.
Let’s say there are a couple of cult members at my door. I warmly ask for their names, and then say, “I have a knife in my back. I am dying and have only three minutes to live. What do I need to do to enter heaven/paradise/the kingdom of God?” They look concerned. One says, “A lot.” I ask, “What do you mean ‘a lot’? I have only two minutes to live. Help me.” They will normally say they cannot help someone who has just a couple of minutes to live, because their salvation is based on gaining knowledge and doing “good works.” The fact that they must do things to be saved reveals that they are trusting in their “self-righteousness.”
When I then ask if they think they are “good” people, they almost always say they are, and that is the root cause of their deception. While they know they are sinners, they believe their sin is not so bad that they cannot earn their own way out of it and “merit” heaven. So they must be taken through the Law and made to understand that they are criminals in the sight of a holy Judge, and are guilty of countless crimes. They must be taken through the Law and made to understand that they are criminals in the sight of a holy Judge, and are guilty of countless crimes. They must understand that God is perfect and holy, that He considers lust to be adultery and hatred to be murder, and He will see to it that absolute justice is done. That means adulterers, murderers, liars, and thieves will be damned forever. Once they recognize that, they will understand that their “good” works are not good at all, but are in reality a detestable attempt to bribe the Judge of the universe. Hopefully they will trust in His mercy alone to save them.
That is how the thief on the cross was saved—through mercy alone. He didn’t go anywhere or do anything to save himself. He couldn’t, because he was nailed to the cross. He had no other avenue but to humbly turn to Jesus and say, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom” (Luke 23:42). In doing so, he acknowledged Jesus as Lord, and believed that He would rise from the dead (Rom. 10:9).
That is all that any who are involved in “works righteousness” religions need to do to be saved. They are condemned by the Law. They cannot go anywhere or do anything. All they can do is turn to Jesus and trust in Him alone for their salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; “it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8,9). So plant that seed in the hearts of those who think they can be saved by their own works, then pray that God causes it to grow and produce fruit.
Whippersnapper!
Naw, the bible sez what it is. It calls it the “second death”. Jesus explained it. It’s even mentioned in Genesis.
To understand the explanations, though, one needs to put themself into the mind of the readers of the scripture at the time they were penned. It’s really simple. Ecclesiastes even discusses it.
I quite assertively rebutted, “I am NOT!”
That is covered in what I wrote, in which I showed that your scenario is not what Scripture teaches.
"the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (Hebrews 9:8) Thus OT believers could not actually enter in the holy of holies, yet neither were they with the lost and suffering in bondage. For in the true story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.In which Lazarus is comforted in a separate compartment of Hades, Abraham’s bosom (AKA Paradise) while the once-complacent uncaring rich man is tormented in the flames of Hell:"
"However, the death and resurrection of Christ changed the reality of the believers, whereby brethren have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh." (Hebrews 10:19-20) " "When Christ died then having provided the perfect atonement, then the way into the holiest of Heaven was opened," "he descended first into the lower parts of the earth" "he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men," "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) Which 2 Corinthians 12:2 teaches is [now] Heaven." "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many,"
"also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah," "These were not saved souls, nor does 1 Peter 4:6 (For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit) necessarily say that Christ preached them so that they may be saved, rather than referring having preached to them who are now dead, so that they may live. The rich man in Hades was not given a second chance, nor is this really something that is taught."
The above contain quotes from what I said, and nowhere is it taught that souls are now in some middle state or that they ever where in order to finish their education and so they can follow Him through their resurrection.
All you can is try to read that into 1 Peter 4:6, but which does not teach that, for if it refers to the afterlife, then it is on the context of judgment of the lost standing alive before God/Christ for their sins, who as said, having "preached to the damned disobedient souls would be that by rejecting Noah then they in essence were rejecting Christ."
The endless numbers of denominations, schisms, stake burnings, heretic purges, etc puts the lie to that statement.
There are two types of sinners in scriptures. One is like Eve who was deceived. The second type is like Adam who willfully understood and deliberately sinned against God. (1 Tim 2:14). It is not our place to judge and our hope is for salvation for all. But, at the same time, there are those who deliberately fight against the message. We are commanded not even to pray for those who would willfully speak against the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. (John 16:8)
1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
They've placed their faith in something as surely as we Christians have. Of course they'll defend their beliefs just as strongly as us Christians.
Not so. My faith is built on the fact that I recognize that I'm a sinner and Christ Jesus paid my penalty before God. This faith is built on what is revealed in scripture composed by kings and paupers, people who rose to great heights and people who were martyred for their message. There are great miracles that confirms this message as well as eye witnesses that attest to the resurrected Living God. The Holy writings were written during a time when those around also experienced the same miracles and validated the writings. I also know this to be true because of work that Christ has done in me throughout my life. And whether God gives me riches or reduces me to poverty, it doesn't change the fact that He works all things to my good.
One can have faith that Baal is the ruler and jump around slashing themselves until the cows come home. It is a faith that is built upon the premise of what someone thinks is a good thing. They can give testimony of what their god had done for them like the women of Jeremiah who said that they had it good under the queen of heaven. They can even be a very noble person like Ghandi. Sure they might defend what they believe but it is built on nothing. It doesn't change anything internally or spiritually. They are simply old wine in new wine skins.
It officially is.
Then it's a Christian Caucus; where we cannot speak AGAINST anything NON-Christian.
No, that does not follow, rather, because it is a pro-God, pro-America conservative forum it allows even atheistic conservatives (even if their group has not supreme standard for their morality) to chime in. However, not likely lasting long as vocal anti-theists, which is contrary to this forum's stance as are anti-God anti-traditional America liberals, who are usually quickly zotted once evident.
My comment though was not that of disallowing atheist-types, but asking seeing this is a pro-God forum, why would atheists want to be part of it? Granted, if conservative, which is rare for atheists, then they can find some kinship, as we do with Catholics. However, there is a significant difference btwn disagreeing about what Scripture teaches while upholding it moral and most of its major teachings together, and disagreeing that Scripture is the word of God.
But; since we are allowed to do so; it cannot be a caucus; therefore anyone with a view about god, GOD, gods or random molecular collisions may chime in; right?
I nowhere said it was a caucus, and again it does not follow that being a pro-God, pro-America conservative forum means it is a Christian-only caucus. Yet i dare say it is more Christian than the so-called www.christianforums.com, the largest "Christian" forum site. Replete with pro-lesbian mods.
Then ask this of all those who have pondered this, and those who have affirmed this: “In many places across America, from the 1980’s on, the flat statement has been declared: “ We are going to take this nation back for gawd!” What do you intend to do with all those American citizens who refuse to go along with that?
Restricting damnation to simply the word "damned" is absurd, like as restricting salvation to simply the word "saved" would be. The word for "damned" itself occurs 19 times in the NT, and in many other places damnation is described.
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 8:11-12)
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. (Luke 3:17)
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:28)
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 22:13)
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:50-51)
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:30)
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (Matthew 25:31-32) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48)
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:27-28)
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:10-11)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
Note: attempting to disallow eternal torment on disputable grammatical grounds cannot prevail since it is hardly tenable that the Lord's dire warnings, including hacking off appendage or gouging out eyes to avoid be cast into unquenchable hell fire, would have much of a deterrent effect if this simply refers to being burned up. Being able to indulge in decades of fulfilling lusts in exchange for momentary punishment would be considered worth it by most who seek to fulfill such.
Moreover, people will be cast into the same lake of fire the devil will, who shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever, and the beast and false prophet were still there after 1,000 years.
In addition,the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 not a parable, in which real names are never used, and which stories employ known physical realities which correspond to spiritual realities (i.e. "tares" = "the children of the wicked"), and never teach science fiction in this correspondence. However, if there is no such thing as being cognizant of torment after death, then for the first and only time the Lord would be engaging in science fiction. And it is also stretch to make the rich man in Hell correspond to some mere spiritual reality that is not that of the afterlife and Hell.
And that is where the question is begged: What is the punishment? We know it is eternal in duration, but there seems to be disagreement of the condition of the person punished there.
After the above texts, your only question should be the degree of punishment, which does differ according to the degree of accountability and iniquity.
He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29. KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation . (Matthew 23:14. KJV)
Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (Luke 10:11-12. KJV)
Are you an American citizen?
That depends upon what the assertion means, but it almost always refers to restoring basic traditional values, such as expressed reverential gratitude and dependence upon God, (versus practical atheism) in both government, schools and the home; profanity being discouraged (including in movies); and respect for parents and authority in general, and the military (patriotism); self-control (chewing gum vs. shootings in schools); immodesty and sexual sins being shameful; marriage being btwn male and female; obtaining benefits via work vs. welfare dependence upon the state, etc.
This neither meant a state church or that atheists had to affirm faith, nor that the gov,. could not do as before , that of affirming religious faith in a monotheistic Creator.
Just where do you see a violation of the 1st amendment, except by hyper separatists who insist they know what the authors of the 1st amendment meant better than the founders themselves, except when it comes to liberal clergy being in bed with liberal pols.
That is as logically fallacious as asserting that 50 members of a tribe with a relationship to its elder, with some variation of opinion about him, means 50 elders, rather than some difference of opinion about him. And the existence of those who clearly misrepresent who/what he is also does not mean there is necessarily more than one elder.
I swear that I just read an article out of the Watchtower or the Awake rag that Jehovah’s Witnesses use.
No, it isn't. If you ask each member to point to and positively ID the elder, they can do it. There is no question about who he is. You can ask him about what he believes on any subject and get a concrete answer. You can give the elder a message to convey to each member and he can do it. You can track the reception of that message for each member and you can find out if it was received accurately. If it wasn't, you can go back and correct the error. You can't do that with a single Jesus because there isn't one.
Nancy Pelosi believes that Jesus is OK with abortion. Elton John thinks Jesus was "a super intelligent gay man".
That isn't a circle you can square. You and Elton John are not talking about the same Jesus.
For true Christ ians the Bible is the standard by which they identify the Real Jesus (God with us). I can explain that further to you, if you catually want an insight you have not come up with on your own.
While the analogy suffers in the matter of degrees from being a difference btwn something tangible and present among just 50 members versus a spiritual person of detailed description in a substantive volume, your statement with your examples is still absurd.
positively ID the elder,
The Christ of Scripture is well described, and with only a small fraction of those in the "Christian camp" having a fundamentally different idea of him, and which is typically among those who implicitly follow controlling leaders as if they cannot err.
Thus the different is btwn the Christ of Scripture or one that is fundamentally different.
You can ask him about what he believes on any subject and get a concrete answer.
That is not always the case with living entities, and your example presumes all questions are asked and answered directly, while in a more fitting analogy the entity provides his public answers in a volume which is basically clear, but allows from some variation of opinion.
The point remains that belief in such an entity despite a lack of knowledge or misunderstandings by believers does not mean each person in a relationship with said entity has their own entity, esp when fundamentally such concur and you have highly descriptive information about said person. And subjective feelings must be subject to objective information.
Nancy Pelosi believes that Jesus is OK with abortion. Elton John thinks Jesus was "a super intelligent gay man". That isn't a circle you can square. You and Elton John are not talking about the same Jesus.
Those examples serve to support what I explained, which is that such constitute false ideas about Christ = a false Christ, versus the one of Scripture. Thus rather than each party having their own Christ, Nancy and Elton simply does not know the Christ of Scripture.
You can resort asserting that this cannot be demonstrated, but which is non-sense in the light of what Christ taught and referenced as doctrine, and thus such liberals almost always must impugn the authority of Scripture (as Buttigieg: "Jesus speaks so often in hyperbole and parable, in mysterious code, that in my experience, there’s simply no way that a literal understanding of Scripture can fit into the Bible that I find in my hands..." Yet as convenient, he invokes Christ as speaking literally).
And the NT places great emphasis upon Christ being manifest ot israel, and in contrast warns,
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)
And again, thus those who have fundamentally different Christ are the fringe, from Islam , to SWEDENBORG to "CHRISTIAN SCIENCE ” Mormonism ,. SO-CALLED JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES .
Boy, you sure said a mouthful, but you did not directly answer the question!
I did not ask for your laundry list.
I asked what would you do with those American citizens who refused? I did not categorize them as ‘atheists’, you did. They could be Buddhists, Ba’hai, Sikh, Taoists, Greek or Russian Orthodox, or Jews! All not of your persuasion, but American citizens, still.
You are begging the question by equating intolerance of any dissent with the t"aking this nation back for God movement," which misrepresents it as if this was the KKK, but that is hardly is what the movement overall manifested itself to be.
And I answered your ? "What do you intend to do with all those American citizens who refuse to go along with that?" by describing what that movement meant. Censure of Muslim fundamentalist is what is advocated, much in defense of Jews, while debating liberals and others, not executing an inquisition with its powers. Where did you pick up your paranoid scenario? Newsweek?
One man's nothing is another man's something.
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