Posted on 11/02/2019 8:30:32 AM PDT by Antoninus
Those “sins” were invented by the church, you don’t categorize sins. The only two sins out there are the denying the deity of Yeshua and blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.
Just punishment was meted out - on Christ who took on our sin. It is finished!
The idea of Purgatory as a physical place (like heaven and hell) became Roman Catholic teaching in the late 11th century.
“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Hebrews 10
Seems the Catholic church has been editing scripture. Or just ignoring it. “he has perfected for all time”. Not, “He paid the price for SOME sins, but a lot of sins are left for YOU to pay...you aren’t perfect enough for God until you suffer for sin!”
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
Not sure how it gets much worse than denigrating the blood of Jesus.
“ Do you believe in Apostolic Tradition?”
.....
Yes. I believe in all the practices of the Apostles, that are included in inspired Scripture.
No, I don’t believe any claim of tradition that cannot be proven to be practiced or taught by an Apostle.
Talk is cheap.
The rest can be anything, from any source, that is not from God.
“Asking for forgiveness through faith alone is not enough. Our Lord clearly shows that we must also, by his grace, remove the disorder of the heart that causes us to sin against both God and our neighbors. If this is not accomplished here, then God will finish this operation in Purgatory.”
“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” - Hebrews 10
Perfected. Not partial. “Perfected for all time.”
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...” - Ephesians 2
Notice the tenses: “made”, “Raised”, “seated”. Jesus is there, and so are we if we are “In Him”.
Hence, “It is finished!”
“ Purgatory is only for those with venial sins to be purged from their souls. No one with sin on his/her soul enters heaven. ”
.....
Chapter and verse please??
it doesn’t get any worse. Except maybe running to Mary to protect you from the Jesus you have diminished.
Re: post 40..
And HERE we have the RCC misunderstanding of Christ’s FINISHED work for us on the Cross. And how do we know for a CERTAINTY that He did EVERYTHING necessary for our salvation?? Because GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE SEAD. If there was even ONE thing we had to contribute in order to be saved God could NOT have raised Him. His PERFECT SACRIFICE would not have been perfect.
We also learn from history, as Jesus was an historical figure, as were the Roman prelates.
Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and history. There aren't any other sources.
The idea that Purgatory is a physical place is not Catholic doctrine. On the other hand, the idea of a cleansing (spiritual) fire goes back to the early Church:
OrigenIf a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).
Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).
Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).
Et alii.
You are conflating forgiveness with cleansing.
Hence, “It is finished!”
What was finished was the new paschal sacrifice which began at the Last Supper. If we were to take these words in an absolute sense the you would also have to say that faith itself is not necessary. Requiring this would also be adding to the saving work of Jesus.
I would also note the common Protestant tactic of quoting another scriptural passage while ignoring scriptural passages (in this case that of Jesus himself) which go against Protestant teaching.
Then faith itself is not needed since this, too, would be adding to the finished work of Jesus.
It's what's termed metaphorically speaking- Also: "Psalm 91:4 He will cover you with His feathers; under His wings you will take refuge" Now God is a big chicken. Again, a metaphor.
So if you're not a son of Levi you've nothing to worry about.
Metaphorically speaking.
“ Do you believe that Scripture is the ONLY source of our faith? If so, where does it say that in Scripture?”
.....
So you are simply asserting something not found in Scripture ever.
Scripture is the only thing necessary for salvation and Christian maturity.
And when you assert something that is contrary to Scripture, as you’ve done, scripture judges that belief as false.
“ Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is the only source of our faith? ”
I don’t know anyone who ever said that...
Just refuting your implied claim that Purgatory was an invention of the Middle Ages. Rather, the idea of a refining (purging) fire goes back to the early Church.
“I would also note the common Protestant tactic of quoting another scriptural passage while ignoring scriptural passages (in this case that of Jesus himself) which go against Protestant teaching.”
Sorry I didn’t quote the entire Bible. But I’m sure you will post scripture showing we need a cleansing that has nothing to do with being forgiven. Except even Catholics generally agree the Bible doesn’t discuss Purgatory.
“You are conflating forgiveness with cleansing.”
No. You are creating an artificial difference, one unknown to scripture.
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation....For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Cor 5
Notice again: “if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation”. Not will someday be new, after being changed via the fire of Purgatory! He IS a new creation - “so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” There is therefor NOW no condemnation.
“31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us....” - Romans 8
If you are in Christ, you ARE secure. If you are not, then Hell itself cannot purify you!
Using Malachi 3:3 which was metaphorically speaking (as I addressed in an earlier post) - as for non-Catholics we have 2Cor5:8
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