Posted on 11/02/2019 8:30:32 AM PDT by Antoninus
The idea of Purgatory as an intermediary state between Heaven and Hell is one of the most misunderstood and occasionally ridiculed aspects of Catholic doctrine. Though it is common for Protestants and even some Catholics to assume that Purgatory has no foundation in Sacred Scripture, that claim is actually false. The need for Purgatory developed from a close reading of Scripture by the Fathers of the Church, and the concept has a provenance stretching back to the earliest days of the Church. Furthermore, it has come to my attention recently that the Orthodox have a similar understanding of the need for purification before entering Heaven, even if their understanding of that purgation is not the same as that of the Catholic Church.
See Part II of this post here.
One of the earliest accounts of a Purgatory-like place comes from an unexpected source, indeed one of the Mothers of the Church, rather than one of the Fathers. Dating from about AD 203, the authentic account of the Passion of Saint Perpetua details a poignant vision which Perpetua experienced immediately prior to her martyrdom. The words of this early Christian martyr, as written in Latin in her prison diary, speak for themselves:
After a few days, while we were all praying, on a sudden, in the middle of our prayer, there came to me a word, and I named Dinocrates. And I was amazed that that name had never come into my mind until then, and I was grieved as I remembered his misfortune. And I felt myself immediately to be worthy, and to be called on to ask on his behalf. And for him I began earnestly to make supplication, and to cry with groaning to the Lord.Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age who died miserably with disease—his face being so eaten out with cancer, that his death caused repugnance to all men. For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. And moreover, in the same place where Dinocrates was, there was a pool full of water, having its brink higher than was the stature of the boy, and Dinocrates raised himself up as if to drink. And I was grieved that, although that pool held water, still, on account of the height to its brink, he could not drink. And I was aroused, and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayers would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birthday of Geta Cæsar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.
Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar, and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water. And Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.
While mysterious and certainly not covering all of the Catholic Church's criteria for Purgatory, Perpetua's vision seems to confirm the belief that the souls of the dead benefit from the prayers of the living, particularly those about to endure martyrdom for the sake of Christ.
Update: September 4, 2018:
The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas is related in full in I Am a Christian: Authentic Accounts of Christian Martyrdom and Persecution from the Ancient Sources. This book is a collection of the best ancient sources on the persecution of early Christians and well worth having if you are interested in this topic.
Some additional sources on the origin of Purgatory, including a large excerpt from Pope Saint Gregory the Great who formalized much of what we believe about Purgatory today, will be included in a subsequent post.
You can make that complicated if you want to, but it is actually a very simple concept. God births us from above, imputing the righteousness of Christ to our spirit making us alive with eternal life in our spirit.
To be born again is to have the sin drenched spirit -- which has been directing the flesh in sin-- cleansed by the Power of God, then sealed with eternal life. With the heart a man believes unto righteousness, THEN with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. That confession is an on-going process of present tense, being saved from the flesh daily. What happens to the flesh (the body and behavior mechanism called the soul) is depending upon how much we yield to the One Who bought us with a price such that we are not our own any longer.
I know your explanation. I just don’t see any scriptural support for it. I mean, really:
“This is a true saying:
...If we continue to endure, we shall also rule with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.” - 2 Tim 2
And of course, Hebrews 6:
“For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God’s light; they tasted heaven’s gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit; 5 they knew from experience that God’s word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.”
It seems really clear.
It apparently seems clear to you. I have a different understanding and I share it. It is my belief that since God knows the end from the beginning (and every moment in between) when He seals the spirit it is with eternal life. Our definitions of what eternal life is apparently diverge.
IF one as a Jew, participated in the demand for Pilot to crucify Jesus, then believes later in the heart that Jesus is Messiah and that God raised Him from the dead, then drifts or jumps back into seeking righteousness under the law, is it your contention that such a thing can happen and erase the eternal life given when that one believed in their heart and was born from above? ... Or do you not believe when someone is born again they have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them and have passed from a state of deadness in spirit to eternal Life in Christ?
“In your quote from Hebrews 6, you are aware that it is to Jews who have placed trust/belief in Jesus that the writer is speaking?”
No. Sorry. There are not two categories of Christians, one for Jews and one for Gentiles.
If someone chooses to reject Christ, they will be damned. Just like 2 Tim 2 says, “If we deny him, he also will deny us.”
Calvin had it right on this one:
““12 If we deny him, he will also deny us A threatening is likewise added, for the purpose of shaking off sloth; for he threatens that they who, through the dread of persecution, leave off the confession of his name, have no part or lot with Christ.
How unreasonable is it, that we should esteem more highly the transitory life of this world than the holy and sacred name of the Son of God! And why should he reckon among his people those who treacherously reject him? Here the excuse of weakness is of no value; (169) for, if men did not willingly deceive themselves with vain flatteries, they would constantly resist, being endued with the spirit of strength and courage.
Their base denial of Christ proceeds not only from weakness, but from unbelief; because it is in consequence of being blinded by the allurement of the world, that they do not at all perceive the life which is in the kingdom of God. But this doctrine has more need of being meditated on than of being explained; for the words of Christ are perfectly clear,
“Whoever shall deny me, him will I also deny” (Matthew 10:33.)
It remains that every one consider with himself, that this is no childish terror, but the judge seriously pronounces what will be found, at the appointed time, to be true.”
The New Testament has a variety of passages about persevering to the end. Hebrews 6 was no more JUST to Jews than Romans 5:
“What shall we say, then, of Abraham, the father of our race? What was his experience? 2 If he was put right with God by the things he did, he would have something to boast about—but not in God’s sight. 3 The scripture says, “Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.” 4 A person who works is paid wages, but they are not regarded as a gift; they are something that has been earned. 5 But those who depend on faith, not on deeds, and who believe in the God who declares the guilty to be innocent, it is this faith that God takes into account in order to put them right with himself.”
Or Romans 11....
The writer of Hebrews was writing to Jews, to Jewish converts to Christ. The writer does not need us to tell him that once a Jew is born again in this age of Grace, he can be a Jew in race but is no longer a 'under the law of Moses' Jew.
Paul goes even further, to tell those born again that we are heirs to the perfect righteousness, with Abraham, when we believe and receive eternal life in the now; believers having the righteousness of Christ in their spirit are sons of Abraham!.
You apparently believe a person (Jew or Gentile) can be born again then unborn themselves and be damned. The writer of Hebrews is trying to illustrate why that cannot be done, using the argument that if one did that or could do that, unborn themselves rejecting the eternal life God placed upon their new born spirit, then it is impossible to get reborn again, and why.
That is a most precious truth, that once we are bought with a price, by God, we are born again and cannot unborn ourselves 'BECAUSE His seed with us abides'.
You stated, “Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.” Um, that is a bit off the mark; Because Abraham believed that Belief GOD counted AS Righteousness. Jesus gave the clarity: John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Paul tells us that because we believe in our heart God IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ to us and seals our spirit with His Holy Spirit seal. Paul even goes further to tell us that such an born again cannot sin because the seed of God remains in their spirit. The seal cannot be broken because the born again spirit cannot sin; it is no longer I that sin but the sin that occupies my flesh, my inherited from Adam flesh nature to sin (I am born into God's family and have His righteousness in my spirit).
Just for clarity, I believe the following as axioms of being born again:
I have passed from a state of death into eternal Life, because His seed, His righteousness dwells in meMy flesh, the decaying body and behavior mechanism (soul) which sins in thought and deed, remains until the future redemption occurs for my spirit to receive a new behavior mechanism and new body fit for eternity which I possess
When I was born from above by His Spirit, I received in my human spirit the righteousness of Christ seal upon my spirit
There are three tenses to the verb saved: I was saved when I believed in my heart that Jesus is my redeemer, I am being saved from the power of sin, my sin nature which is dying daily dies as I make confession with my mouth what my spirit believes, and I will be saved when Jesus returns for ALL BELIEVERS His Spirit has sealed with eternal life when the Rapture occurs and I no longer have a body decaying or a soul bent to sin.
How do you define eternal life? And what do you say is the moment when eternal life is in the born again?
Kerping
Meant to ping you to #367
.....”once we are bought with a price, by God, we are born again and cannot unborn ourselves ‘BECAUSE His seed with us abides”.....
... Having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were ‘sealed’ with the promised Holy Spirit...who is the ‘pledge of our inheritance’....If we are faithless He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself”.....
At first, Christianity was available only to the Jews...
I always thought it peculiar that Jesus sent the 12 apostles to the Jews but sent the apostle Paul to the Gentiles...We have no idea what Jesus instructed those 12 apostles to teach the Jews...
And when Jesus is done with the Gentile church in Romans 11 he will then turn back to his people, the Jews and what exactly he will tell them then we don't know either...
If someone chooses to reject Christ, they will be damned. Just like 2 Tim 2 says, “If we deny him, he also will deny us.”
And yet Peter denied Jesus 3 times but was still accepted by Jesus...So apparently when it says Jesus will deny us it doesn't mean we will be damned...And of course denying Jesus doesn't mean we no longer believe in Jesus...
Hebrews 6 is notorious for being one of the toughest bits of scripture in the entire bible...No one can be certain what it really means and agreement on what it means has evaded bible scholars since the beginning of bible scholars...
One possibly skewed way to look at the verses is that it says a person can't come back to Jesus by repenting again...But the fact that you can come back to Jesus after denying him was proven by Peter...I don't know...Perhaps a 2nd repentance is out of the picture...
In my opinion, Hebrews was written for Jews who were expected to go into the Tribulation right after the Crucifixion and when that didn't pan out, it now pertains to the Jews who will go thru the Tribulation after the Rapture...In which case there are things in there that haven't fully been revealed to us...Because they don't pertain to us...
I think that's what I was trying to say...You can't repent to get born again since you can't get unborn...
BINGO! I didn’t place God’s eternal life in my spirit and HIS Seal is upon my spirit now, so I cannot remove His seal for I am now His and in HIS HANDS.
I looked at Matt 12:32, and came away with a COMPLETELY different opinion than you do. In fact, I think it says exactly the opposite of your opinion.
And yet Peter denied Jesus 3 times but was still accepted by Jesus.
A very careful scrutinizing of the four gospels will show that on that night after Jesus was arrested, Simon denied Jesus in 6 instances. 3 before the first cockcrow, and 3 more after the second cockcrow; two different times to one of the accusers, to 5 different people in all. But remember, at this moment Peter was still under the Old Mosaic/Davidic Covenant of the Law. At this point, he was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Throughout this period of the Law, the Spirit could come and rest ON an individual, and after a while not stay but go away (Saul, 1 Sam. 10:6, 15:26, 16:13-14; Judas Iscariot and Simon Peter, Luke 9:1, 12:9 & Mt. 10:33, Lk. 22:3,61). Satan entered Judas' heart, but not that of Simon Peter.
After Jesus' resurrection, He did confer the Spirit UPON ten of His disciples for the time He walked with them (Jn. 20:22) during forty days; and also restored Simon back to his position among the other 10 (Jn. 21:15-18). Finally, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirt came to dwell IN each of the. From then on, Peter did not/could not ever deny Christ.
But the fact that you can come back to Jesus after denying him was proven by Peter...I don't know...Perhaps a 2nd repentance is out of the picture...
No, that is not proven for the time of the Age of Grace, the Church Age that started on the day of Pentecost. If you are really indwelt by theHoly Spirit, you cannot deny Jesus. You cannot come under judgment/condemnation again (Jn. 5:26).
Remember, Peter was one of the Jews from whom the Old Covenant was removed when it was fulfilled by Jesus at the Cross, and to whom the New Covenant was presented for their continuing access to God. Anyone not willing to give up the now-dead Old one and accept Jesus as God and Master, rejecting Him, had no other way to be saved, reborn spiritually, and receive God's favor as His people. The old way of repenting from one's sins and blood-letting of bulls and goats and doves could no longer achieve atonement and forgiveness. And that's what Hebrews 6:4-6 is all about.
Capisce?
3 before the first cockcrow, and 3 more after it but before the second cockcrow;
“ The reason is this. November is the month dedicated to the Holy Souls. The way I look at it, there are virtuous protestant souls in Purgatory with no one to pray for them. If a post like this results in even a few prayers for these suffering departed ones, then it’s worth all the angst, hand-wringing and fulmination. ”
Since there is no purgatory in scripture, no Christian will be there.
“To be absent from the Body, is to be present with the Lord.”
The Roman Catholic mythology of purgatory is thus rejected. The god of Catholicism is not impartial, for that god (who is imaginary too) transforms everyone at the Rapture, but some were required to 'suffer' to become pure enough in their flesh to enter heaven.
Typical Romish tactic, put words in the fingers that you want to oppose, rather than deal in truth. How very dishonest.
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