Posted on 06/29/2018 12:32:50 PM PDT by fishtank
Alpha & Omega Ministries
Published on Jun 27, 2018
James White debates roman catholic apologist Peter D. Williams on the subject of indulgences. This debate took place on June 4, 2018 at All Saints Church in Belfast Northern Ireland.
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
Yes, they do.
Weren’t they implemented during the Middle Ages to get money for the Catholic church (who were in control during that time).
I’ve seen blacks from downtown churches come to predominantly white churches and insist that the stain and sin of slavery is still with us.
That the only solution for this problem is for whites to give blacks more money power status etc.
Basically the plan is to jail your ancestors and then allow you to offer bail to spring them jail for a time—because they will be jailed again.
This is basically the sale of indulgences.
If I understand it correctly, an indulgence is a prepaid get-out-of-jail free card for one or more future sins.
If my understanding is correct, then an Indulgence cheapens the purpose of holy living.
In reality, 1 John 1 + 1 John 2 make it clear we continue to sin and if we can confess that then we are cleansed by Jesus.
I would be extremely reluctant to let go of that promise.
No.
Jesus paid it all, so go ahead and think you an pay an organization cash or credit for remission of sinful nature/acts, go ahead.
Try ‘splaining that to the Lord Jesus when He shows you how your sins were paid for by the ripped skin and flesh of His body, the nail prints in His hands and heels and the hole perforating His heart.....
Then perhaps He will show you how all of man’s brutality paled in comparison of the punishment the Beloved Son endured from the Father to allow you to be made righteous in body soul and spirit.....
The whole works of God are to believe in His Son.
Yes. Next question please.
What do you think Staples is going to say.....no??
"If I understand correctly, an indulgence is a prepaid 1
get-out-of-jail free card 2
...for one or more future sins3.
[So] Indulgence cheapens the purpose of holy living4.
In reality, 1 John 1 + 2 make it clear we continue to sin and if we can confess that then we are cleansed by Jesus. 5
I would be extremely reluctant to let go of that promise. 6
1. This was in fact a flagrant money-making biz for instance when St. Peter's Basilica was being built. But that's an abuse. It is, and always has been, a sin to exchange any sort of spiritual goods for money --- the sin of simony --- and those who did this (Pope Leo X together with his notorious "salesmen" like Johann Tetzel) were rightly rebuked at the time, and to this day are regarded as early-Renaissance scoundrels, not as saints.
In other words, what you are objecting to in this case, was not the use, but the abuse of indulgences.
2. An indulgence is not about get-out-of-jail-free, but a way to help each other by prayers and charitable practices, and as a kind of spiritual repair work. Briefly, the ancient, and more severe ecclesiastical penalties (such as months or years of public penance for a grave sin -- armed robbery, murder, sodomy, apostasy) were replaced with much more lenient acts of devotion (like going on a pilgrimage, repairing a church, supporting orphans.) This is not for the forgiveness of past sins. This is for sins that have already been repented, confessed and forgiven.
3. Indulgences have nothing to do with future sins. Repentance and God's forgiveness are preconditions for indulgences, since you can't repent of something you're going to do in the future, and you can't receive any sort of spiritual good unless you is in a state of sanctifying grace. All of this is Christ's work on the Cross. All of this is guaranteed to the repentant sinner, who receives forgiveness and grace as a gift, just as the "Good Thief" did. Eternal punishment has been completely washed away by the blood of Christ crucified.
4. Gaining an indulgence actually manifests a commitment to holy living. It is balancing the scales of justice after forgiveness by being an outward sign of one's inward change of mind (metanoia) and doing good to repair the harm you've done (e.g. charitable work to repair one's previous works of avarice.)
It repairs temporal damage and remits temporal punishment. Again, this is only an analogy, but it's like an apology, a statement of remorse and a stint of community service instead of jail.
Matthew 3:8
Bear fruit worthy of repentance.
4. To use an analogy to human justice, we understand that one who has been forgiven must still "pay a debt to society." If a couple of teens got drunk, started tossing lighted matches here and there and burned down a forest, even if they're forgiven, maybe they should give $10,000 to the National Park Service? Give 100 talks at schools against drunkenness and playing with fire? Plant 100,000 trees?
5. This is not letting go of God's promise of forgiveness. It is part of acknowledging the harm done by one's sins, the justice of God's punishments, and the reality of one's change of heart.
Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance.
as opposed to
"God, The Father," who by contrast is faithful and just to forgive sins, ... not by any works of righteousness which we have done, but is generous in mercy as it is His nature, and according to His mercy He saves us. (I John 1:9, Titus 3:5)
FReegards!
You have more patience than I do.
Brilliant!!!
Jesse Jackson, meet Johann Tetzel!!!
But this has nothing to do with indulgences, which have to do with the temporal (not eternal) consequences of sin.
This may be of interest to you.
All punishment is washed away.
4. Gaining an indulgence actually manifests a commitment to holy living. It is balancing the scales of justice after forgiveness by being an outward sign of one's inward change of mind (metanoia) and doing good to repair the harm you've done (e.g. charitable work to repair one's previous works of avarice.)
There are no scales to balance. One is either forgiven or they are not.
There may be consequences to the sin such as jail time for theft or the death penalty for murder but those are man-made rules....not God's.
When the woman was caught in adultery the Law required her to be stoned to death.
What did Jesus say to her?
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5“Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” 6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”] John 8:1-11 NASB
*******************************
The paralytic
1When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them. 3And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men. 4Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying. 5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11“I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” 12And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.” Mark 2:1-12 NASB
Peter addressing the Jews
17“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18“But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:17-19 NASB
*******************
It repairs temporal damage and remits temporal punishment. Again, this is only an analogy, but it's like an apology, a statement of remorse and a stint of community service instead of jail.
Matthew 3:8 Bear fruit worthy of repentance.
So much out of context.
4Now John himself had a garment of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; 6and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:4-12 NASB
The verse is not saying what you want it to say. The fruit that is being produced is not a punishment for any wrong doings as witnessed in Roman Catholicism.
What Roman Catholicism never seems to understand is that your sins are completely forgiven....and covered.
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
Romans 4:1-8 NASB
When Jesus forgave people of their sins, He did not tell them to go say 50 Hail Mary's, or any other form of work.
Their sins were completely forgiven.
No, actually: The misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine perpetuates the mistaken notion too many have of indulgences, for God is NOT "the Godfather" -- i.e., the guy who accepts pay-offs for protection, and can be bought-off to do you a favor now and then or to just stay out of your way."
Anyone who wishes to avoid this type of common mistake, should take time to understand other Christians' beliefs before they publicly misrepresent then.
A good way to start might by by, you know, asking:
"Hey, you're a Catholic. Please explain to me about this indulgence thing."
Frankly, FReeper FRiend Agamemnon, I don't know you and I wouldn't dare to comment on any of your beliefs --- especially since I don't know what they are --- unless I had asked you to explain them first.
Then we could talk about it.
Thank you.
Love that video. Amen.
Amen
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.