Posted on 05/23/2018 2:50:24 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,(Ephesians 1:22)
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. (Ephesians 5:23)
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.1 Corinthians 11:3) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.(Collossians 1:18)
Scripture is very clear about the fact that there is one head of the church…the LORD Jesus Christ. He is the source, the sole authority, His is the final Word on any subject, To be conformed to His Image is the goal of every expression of the church, there can be no doubt, His is the pre-eminence.
It is a gross distortion for any church to set up any man as “the Vicar of Christ” , the church is not to be man-centered, and it is possible that men can enter into the church and subvert the place of Christ in the people’s hearts. That is one of the definitions of a cult…when a man takes the place in the church of the Head, who is Christ.
The Apostle John gives an example, Diotrophes,
I wrote unto the Church, but Diotrephes which loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore if I come, I will call to your remembrance his deeds which he doeth, prattling against us with malicious words, and not therewith content, neither he himself receiveth the brethren, but forbideth them that would, and thrusteth them out of the Church. ( 3 John 9-10)
Diotrophes displayed an unChristian spirit, first of all, in that He loved the Pre-eminence. In other words, He regarded himself as “First” among the Saints, and the Chief Believer. He put his own word and desires above even the Apostles, and would kick people out of the church for the crime of accepting the teaching of the Apostles and citing the Apostles as authoritative.
The teaching of the Apostles is the only authoritative source of instruction for the church, other than the Law and the Prophets of the Old Testament. The church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and no Pastor, Elder, Prophet, Apostle or Evangelist has any right whatsoever to supersede them.
The mark of whether or not a ministry is even of God, has to do with whether or not they will ‘hear the Apostles”;
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.( I John 4:6)
Having said that, it is also true that Jesus ordained for the church principles of government, which grant to men delegated authority for the edification of the Church. Jesus is not personally going to exercise church discipline in a given situation, He has authorized Elders and leaders to do so. Paul set Titus in Crete and Timothy in the church of Ephesus to “set things in order”,
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:( I Timothy 1:3-5)
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Titus 1:3)
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; (1 Timothy 1:3-4 )
My point is that within the church there are authoritative positions, ordained for the purpose of order and edification. All Christians are equal and there is a priesthood of every believer, but there is also a God ordained ministry, gifted and delegated with authority to carry out their labor of love and mercy.
Titus and Timothy were not to be overbearing, but neither were they to be timid. They were appointed to ordain elders, and command certain to cease and desist from their false doctrines, and to see to it that there was public reading of scripture, correction of the erring in doctrine. All of these tasks require the use of authority. The church is not a democracy, there are officers in the church with responsibilities, which is the flip side of authority.
Even within Eldership, there are different functions and tasks; there are Elders who administrate primarily, and there are teaching Elders,
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.( I Timothy 5:11)
The Church is to be led by a variety of gifts and ministries each having the responsibility and authority according to their gifting. Obviously the prime model of leadership is to set an example, but there are times when Authority is exercised,
These things command and teach. Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.(Ephesians 4:11-12)
It looks like Timothy was expected to wield God given authority, to command and teach… while at the same time live a life of an example… . The delegated authority has limits, which extend to the level of responsibility, no one is allowed to be a dictator or autocrat in the house of God. It extends to the standard of teaching and conduct within the church, and to the regulation of the ordinances , etc..
My point i that within the church there are legitimate cases where individuals wield delegated authority within the scope of their calling. This is neither autocratic or inappropriate, as long as it is done in the context of a properly functioning local church.
Don't be obtuse. Say what you mean.
Scripture says the Apostles - the first priests of the Church Christ established- have the sacramental powers to turn bread into His Body ("do this in remembrance of Me") and the power to forgive sins, is clear in Scripture.
Scripture says the Apostles - the first priests of the Church Christ established- have the sacramental powers to turn bread into His Body (”do this in remembrance of Me”) and the power to forgive sins, is clear in Scripture.
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Thing is that if you want to be painfully strict like that, it means that no one else has that power at all.
Where in Scripture were these specific sacramental powers given to other than the priests of Christ's Church?
Just because you believe something doesn't make it real.
Where in Scripture were these ‘powers’ given to anyone but solely the Apostles?
If you’re going to insist that your priesthood has these ‘powers’ you have to explain why you refuse to even consider that anyone else who follows the teachings of the Apostles would have the same.
Where in the Bible is >that<???
John 20 doesn't say that Jesus gave power to forgive and retain sin to the apostles only. Jesus was speaking to His disciples in John 20 and the context indicated both men and women, apostles and those who were not apostles were breathed upon and given authority by Jesus to forgive and retain sins. Additionally, preceding His giving authority to Believers to forgive and retain sin, Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". It could be argued that "Receiving the Holy Spirit" is a prerequisite for having authority to forgive and retain sin. Assuming this is so, on the day of Pentecost, 120 Believers made up of: men and women, possibly some children received the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues.
If you're an apologist for the Roman Catholic church teaching that authority to absolve sins is limited to its priests only, I would respectfully disagree based my read of John 20 and the book of Acts account of the 120 receiving the Holy Spirit in the upper room.
Who else was he speaking to? You are just making things up. Not 'context' look at the actual words
Don't be obtuse. Say what you mean.
I'm not the obtuse one.
Read Acts....
Scripture says the Apostles - the first priests of the Church Christ established- have the sacramental powers to turn bread into His Body ("do this in remembrance of Me")
No. Scripture does not say what you claim.
and the power to forgive sins, is clear in Scripture.
Again...read Acts....focus on chapters 2-4.
Who else was he speaking to? You are just making things up. Not 'context' look at the actual words.
No. Context is critical to understand this issue. You can't just pull one verse out of context and read into it what you want.
You have no idea of the magnitude of what you wrote here.
So explain it, using Scripture to support your man made beliefs
PS: The reason I put ‘powers’ in quotes is because I don’t like the connotation that the word has, not because of mockery.
So explain it, using Scripture to support your man made beliefs.
No....let's see if you can figure it out. This might be fun.
I am quoting Scripture. Scripture says EXACTLY what I say, because I am quoting Scripture
Nope. Scripture no where says the bread is ever turned into His body.
Scripture says the Apostles - the first priests of the Church Christ established- have the sacramental powers to turn bread into His Body ("do this in remembrance of Me")
That's why context is your key to understanding the Scriptures.
I am quoting Scripture. Scripture says EXACTLY what I say, because I am quoting Scripture
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And believe me I appreciate that.
The issue I have is that while the authority to forgive and retain sins WAS given to Jesus’ Apostles (or potentially the Church at large), it does not therefore follow that ONLY Roman Catholic priests have that authority today, as it seemed you were arguing.
So you admit you cannot use Scripture to support your man-made beliefs. I understand.
So you admit you cannot use Scripture to support your man-made beliefs. I understand.
Oh no....I want you to read Acts 2-4 and try to figure this out for yourself.
“Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 16:17-18
Then he said He will send the Spirit to guide us into all Truth:
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
And note, Scripture says THE CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of that Truth:
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
And Christ did not imply this was a temporary thing, until, say, there was a Bible or a bunch of heretics created their own religions 1,500 years later.
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mat 28:18-20
There can only be one Truth. But the men of the Protestant ‘reformation’ – breaking away after 1,500 years from the Church Christ established – discovered a ‘new’ truth and introduced false teachings.
Paul warned us about those introducing false teachings, "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Tim. 4:3–4).
The protestant “reformation” is simply not Biblical:
“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1Cor 1:10-17
You could easily read the above as “One of you says, "I follow Luther"; another, "I follow Calvin"; another, "I follow Wesley"; still another, "I follow Christ."
Christians cannot be “perfectly united in mind and thought” when they have different beliefs on, say, the necessity of water baptism, while others believe “This is my Body” means “This is a cookie”
There can be only one ‘Truth’ – Christ is THE way, THE truth, THE life. One, not many.
And what if you have a disagreement with a brother as to what is ‘The Truth?’ Where do you go to resolve your issue? Scripture tells us what to do:
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Right – the Church. The Church Christ established to teach the TRUTH.
Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church. They will arise, endure sometimes for centuries, like Protestantism, but we can be confident in Christ’s promise that the Church He established will always teach the Truth.
This is My Body
Figure that one out
Why won't you answer a simple question? Because you can't, using Scripture
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