Vatican rumblings: Pope Francis aiming to end Latin Mass permission

Do a word search on "it is written".

OK... If I have to...

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

141 posted on 07/27/2017 4:20:09 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

To: aMorePerfectUnion

As we discussed the first time we met, there is nothing before 100 ad to support an Apostle teaching or practicing half of the teachings of Rome.

That's why I've had to come back to Earth so MANY times!!

142 posted on 07/27/2017 4:28:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

To: aMorePerfectUnion

So first you make a vast generalization about the poor Scriptural formation of the Catholic priests "based on what we see here at Free Republic", and then you say there's only one?

Your reasoning process fascinates me.

143 posted on 07/27/2017 4:29:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (They said what's down is up, they said what isn't is, they put ideas in his head he thought were his)

To: Arthur McGowan

Below is the ancient ritual of the church and it not the latin mass. Then latin mass contradicts the message of Pentacost, which is preaching in local or native tongues so the word of God/Christ can be understood.

I love the latin mass. i was altar boy in the 50s. But it is not THE ANCIENT MASS. It was long term but the mass in Europe in latin was aimed at keeping people ignorant and giving power to the clergy and rich people who were learned in latin. It meant a large portion of the people couldn’t follow the service.

Also in my opinion the pope can change the service anyway he wants a slalom as the eucharist is maintained as indicated at the last supper, also which was not conducted in latin.

And when the day of Pentecost[iv] was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.[27]

144 posted on 07/27/2017 4:38:48 PM PDT by morphing libertarian

They suggest it isn't Peter as claimed by Roman Catholicism.

Sorry; but they do not SUGGEST anything!

They flat out STATE that it isn't!!

As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

• Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):

Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

145 posted on 07/27/2017 4:40:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

IF-- IF -- you were to succeed in establishing that there is no real "unbroken chain of custody" as you say, then there is no reliable chain of transmission for Scripture. Hit the Delete key on Tradition, and Scripture vanishes from the screen.

I disagree entirely Mrs. Don-o. You are not the first Roman to make this argument.
I believe it is a false argument. First, It isn't the Church that defines Scripture, as you are assuming. It is God Himself. Yes, He uses people. It remains His sovereign decision to decree that the Holy Spirit moved men to record His truths, that His words will be preserved through every terrible even in history - even being carried off in the Babylonian Captivity.
Second, you assume that Protestants merely said, "Well those Romans thought this was Scripture, so let's go with that." Not so. The canon of Scripture was reexamined along with the historical record and decisions were made - including that Rome got it wrong on the Deuter books.
So, this argument you are putting forth carries little if any weight. Please remember that 2/3 of Scripture came before the Church age. Remember that Peter identified Paul's writings as Scripture.
And most of all, remember that it is God's sovereign work and not the Roman Rooster.

But tell me: who established your Canon? And when? Where? And on what basis? I would be interested to know.

Love it! Let's see if you can match my answer to you... I'll quote you:
"Only a truly ignorant person says there is “no proof” when he has simply not examined the proof. I know where you could start. read reformation history.
:-)

146 posted on 07/27/2017 4:40:38 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion

To: Elsie; ealgeone

The Catholic Church teaches that the Church is built on the Faith of Peter. You could have discovered this in 2 minutes by searching the keywords in the Catechism. But here, I'll help you out. It's right here in a blessed nonosecond

Faith of Peter (Catechism link)

"On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church"

This doesn't in the least exclude the fact that Jesus renamed Simon Bar-Jonah Peter, a re-naming which,like all Biblical re-namings, has profound significance. Jesus built His Church on Simon-->Peter, this man and his faith, just as He built the nation of Israel on Abram-->Abraham, the man and his faith.

Please consider those Catechism sections carefully. They will give you a coherent view of what the Catholic Church proposes to us for belief.

147 posted on 07/27/2017 4:48:34 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God)

So first you make a vast generalization about the poor Scriptural formation of the Catholic priests "based on what we see here at Free Republic", and then you say there's only one?

Exactly. 100% of evidence "we see here at FR."

I also base it on an examination of what is taught at the three major Catholic Seminaries in the required curriculum for their candidate priests.

All of which I stated earlier and on other threads.

And this is why I requested you share any surveys or studies that demonstrate any higher level of Biblical training, as you suggested was normal. Still waiting btw.

148 posted on 07/27/2017 5:14:04 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion

To: morphing libertarian

as long as the Eucharist is maintained

149 posted on 07/27/2017 5:14:18 PM PDT by morphing libertarian

To: aMorePerfectUnion

OK! Reformation history! So, I take it, you consider yourself a son of the Reformation? How was I to know? You have been so coy and mysterious about your denominational affiliation, I had no idea where your canon was from.

In fact, I still don't know, because you might be going by:

the original 1611 King James Bible, where the Apocrypha section includes, in addition to the deuterocanonical books, three books which were not included in the list of the canonical books by the Council of Trent:
- 1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras)
- 2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
- Prayer of Manasseh
the Westminster Bibles, which recognize only 66 of the 73 books
the 1599 and 1640 editions of the Geneva Bible (German), some of which were printed with the seven deuterocanonical books, and some without them;
The versions standardized among English-speaking Protestants following the 1825 decision by the British and Foreign Bible Society.
Martin Luther proposed removing these Antilegomena, the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon. All of the modern-day Lutheran Bibles include these books, but none of the confessional statements issued by any Lutheran church includes an explicit list of canonical books.

So maybe you'd like to clear that up for me? Come on, don't be shy!

Who established *your* Canon? And when? Where? On what basis? And why?

150 posted on 07/27/2017 5:20:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God)

But those are not the parameters that establish the reliability of Sacred Tradition --- and if you had proved that, then you had proved too much. Because the Canon of Scripture was not even settled until well into the Fourth Century, AFTER the Faith had been taught by 10 generations of bishops, AFTER the development of the first creeds and the first liturgies.

For Rome the time frame is even longer as Rome's canon was officially declared at Trent in 1546 in a 24 yea to 15 nay with 16 abstaining vote.

That doesn't ring too well for the clear unanimity Roman Catholics like to brag about.

Another interesting thing about the group that claims they never change is that at Trent the Vulgate was to be the authoritative text of Scripture. This was change in 1943 when Pius XII allowed Catholic translations to be based on texts other than the Vulgate.

That's a lot of change for the group that claims they don't change.

But we --- you and I --- would NOT know which were to be believed de fide and which were not, unless the Church on the basis of Sacred Tradition (the bishops' teachings, the creeds and liturgies) --- had winnowed them and set forth the Canon as truly reflecting the Faith that had been handed on to Her, and thus worthy of belief.

Demonstrably false. The ekklesia had generally agreed upon the canon. By 200 AD the current canon was accepted by the church. There were some in question due to authorship but were not rejected. No Council approved the Bible. The ekklesia lead by the Holy Spirit did.

The Roman Catholic likes to claim everything they're doing, believing today was handed down from the Apostles.

This is easily disproven.

The "Hail Mary" is a good example.

The Catholic Encyclopedia Online, which bills itself as "the most comprehensive resource on Catholic teaching, history, and information ever gathered in all of human history", has this to say about the "Hail Mary".

In point of fact there is little or no trace of the Hail Mary as an accepted devotional formula before about 1050. All the evidence suggests that it took its rise from certain versicles and responsories occurring in the Little Office or Cursus of the Blessed Virgin which just at that time was coming into favour among the monastic orders.

We know the apparitions claiming to be Mary were not handed down from the Apostles.

Much can be said of the Immaculate Conception as again the Catholic Encyclopedia Online notes:

no direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.

The Gen 3:15 translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. Regarding Luke 1:28 the CE admits is not proof of the dogma.

To further illustrate this was not a universally received belief of the early church Origen, Basil and Chrysostom claim she did sin in some capacity. The CE attempts to dismiss the "older Fathers" as being in error in this matter!

So what does the Roman Catholic have to rely upon for this doctrine? Proof from Reason per the CE! Gee, we want it to be, it has to be, it should be, we will make it be.

But none of this was taught by the Apostles.

I could keep going but I think I've illustrated the Roman Catholic claim of "Tradition" being exactly what the Apostles handed down to be a false claim.

151 posted on 07/27/2017 5:28:29 PM PDT by ealgeone

To: aMorePerfectUnion

I'm not the one who made an outlandish charge based on a Free Republic representative survey of one person! LOL!

Since you're expressed that this is a strong interest of yours, I suggest you go to CARA and look up their research. http://cara.georgetown.edu/ (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate)

Maybe you'd like to compare and contrast it with the seminary training provided by your denomination, which you still haven't identified, making it impossible to attempt any process of compare-and-contrast.

152 posted on 07/27/2017 5:31:51 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God)

To: Claud; daniel1212

Weak argument from a lack of evidence. Where is the proof that there was a change?

Sorry Claud, but I simply claimed that there is ZERO evidence that an Apostle ever taught or practiced at least half the things Rome claims were "tradition."

I don't have to prove there was a change. It is self evident that there is no evidence it ever existed. No one can produce any proof of an "unbroken chain of traditions that were passed on" as was described.

Most of these pagan practices have references in history HUNDREDS of years (or more) later.

Holy water, praying to saints, the elaborate pagan outfits with fish hats, papacy, alter, and on and on... all added later, since no Apostle had anything to do with them.

Now, I can quote one of your popes who has more standing with you than I ever will... who admits to things added later.

One of the most brilliant Christian theologians who has ever lived is Joseph Ratzinger, also known as Pope Benedict the 16th
His honestly can be refreshing, and which actually testifies to how one can admit evidence that is against being an RC, yet still hold to it. Some of the things he says are those which RCs would react with reproof if said by one of us, for the picture they paint is a different one.
Referring to the schism of the 14th and 15th centuries, Cardinal Ratzinger observed,
"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.
"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196). http://www.whitehorseinn.org/blog/2012/06/13/whos-in-charge-here-the-illusions-of-church-infallibility/)
Ratzinger writes (emp. mine), Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative...
Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg…had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared. - J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), 58-59. .
“If it is desirable to offer a diagnosis of the text [of the Vatican II document, Gaudium et Spes] as a whole, we might say that (in conjunction with the texts on religious liberty and world religions) it is a revision of the Syllabus of Pius IX, a kind of counter syllabus… As a result, the one-sidedness of the position adopted by the Church under Pius IX and Pius X in response to the situation created by the new phase of history inaugurated by the French Revolution, was, to a large extent, corrected…” (Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology, pp. 381,82;
“The concept of [apostolic] succession was clearly formulated, as von Campenhausen has impressively demonstrated, in the anti-Gnostic polemics of the second century; [and not, as some Roman Catholic writers assert, in the first century] its purpose was to contrast the true apostolic tradition of the Church with the pseudo-apostolic tradition of Gnosis” (“God’s Word: Scripture-Tradition-Office” (San Francisco: Ignatius Press ©2008; Libreria Editrice Vaticana edition ©2005) pgs 22-23). We are fairly certain today that, while the Fathers were not Roman Catholics as the thirteenth or nineteenth century world would have understood the term , they were, nonetheless, ‘Catholic,’ and their Catholicism extended to the very canon of the New Testament itself.” [yet even here many did not hold the apocryphal books as being Scripture proper.] (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundamental Theology, trans. Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, Theolgische Prinzipienlehre ]San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1987], p. 141.)
This section borrowed from a post by daniel1212

153 posted on 07/27/2017 5:32:47 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion

To: Mrs. Don-o; Elsie

The Catholic Church teaches that the Church is built on the Faith of Peter.

Whoa....am I reading this correct? You're saying it's built on Peter's confession??

154 posted on 07/27/2017 5:37:11 PM PDT by ealgeone

OK! Reformation history! So, I take it, you consider yourself a son of the Reformation?

No, actually, I do not. I have no "denomination."

I suggested this for your own education, to broaden your view of history beyond what you've been taught.

155 posted on 07/27/2017 5:37:15 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion

Unanimity?

If there were constant "unanimity", why would we have had the Council of Jerusalem? Why would we have had any Synods or Ecumenical Councils at all?

Your grasp of the history is weak-to-nonexistent if you think the story of the Catholic Church has been a story of unanimity--- or that that's what we "claim"!! !! Once again, your argument is based on what you "think" we teach, practice or believe, not on what we actually do.

Again (sigh): please do not tell me what I believe. ASK what I believe. TELL what YOU believe.

Your posts will be more accurate then on the whole, I trust, as well as thoughtful and interesting. I'm sure of it.

156 posted on 07/27/2017 5:43:59 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you: to act justly, to love tenderly, and to walk humbly with your God)

I'm not the one who made an outlandish charge based on a Free Republic representative survey of one person! LOL!

I stated from the beginning that if "what we see on FR" is representative of the training of catholic priests is normal, it is inadequate. I've only ever seen on FReeper say he is a priest.

I stated I examined the curriculum of three Catholic seminaries and observed how little training in Scripture is required.

You stated all the priests you've ever met had much more extensive training.

I asked for anything objective to back that up.

Since you're expressed that this is a strong interest of yours, I suggest you go to CARA and look up their research. http://cara.georgetown.edu/ (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate). Maybe you'd like to compare and contrast it with the seminary training provided by your denomination, which you still haven't identified, making it impossible to attempt any process of compare-and-contrast.

So, your answer is that you don't know of any, but I can go search and maybe find some?? Well, if you had anything definite, I would compare.

This is starting to sound like our discussion of teachings during the Apostolic age. You didn't have anything to back up your claim.

157 posted on 07/27/2017 5:46:52 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion

Uh yeah, duh. Did you read the Catechism?

May I ask that you read more than one line from each citation, so's to get a little context, please?

I'm going to have some of my homemade Apricot Semifreddo with Raspberry Sauce. I'll give you the recipe if you want :o)

Goodnight and blessings to you.

158 posted on 07/27/2017 5:48:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Department of Redundancy Department.)

It is not pleasing to Our Father to speak against our Pope.

159 posted on 07/27/2017 5:49:52 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))

Since you're expressed that this is a strong interest of yours, I suggest you go to CARA and look up their research. http://cara.georgetown.edu/ (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate)

Are these the Jesuits?

This doesn't look like a seminary. I don't find a list of classes. It look more like a social policy research group.

CARA is a non-profit research organization that conducts social scientific studies for the Catholic Church. It is listed in The Official Catholic Directory and is affiliated with Georgetown University. CARA’s goal is to deliver high-quality applied research or consulting services on Church issues. Members of CARA’s research team have graduate degrees in their academic specialties and are Georgetown university faculty members. Their objective is to deliver practical answers to real pastoral questions and provide Church policymakers with the factual basis for informed decisions. CARA conducts major studies of Church-wide significance, but much of its work is custom designed for individual clients. A brief overview of the history of CARA is provided below.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/about-us/cara-story/

I'm not the one who made an outlandish charge based on a Free Republic representative survey of one person! LOL!

Is this the same priest who has had a significant number of posts pulled?? I recall one very specifically but we cannot publish. I will send the topic via freepmail to you.

I checked Notre Dame's Seminary's Master of Divinity Requirements for Fall 2017.

I did not see one class for either Greek or Hebrew. I did see a class on Christology and...wait for it....MARIOLOGY!

There were a number of classes in Ecclesiastical Spanish.

Looking at St Mary's Master of Divinity program:

This appears to be a bit better than Notre Dame's.

22.5 hours are spent in Sacred Scripture.

And yes...there's a course on Marian Theology.

However, no requirement involving Greek or Hebrew.

If you're going for the Licentiate in Sacred Theology there is a requirement for Greek and/or Hebrew. There seems to be a more urgent requirement for fluency in Latin...understandable considering the Roman Catholic reliance upon Latin.

The seminaries I'm familiar with require at minimum two Greek and two Hebrew.

160 posted on 07/27/2017 6:03:08 PM PDT by ealgeone

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