If You Give a Gal a Bishopric…

R.C. Sproul Jr. ^ | 6-15-15 | R.C. Sproul Jr.

[muir_redwoods]

At least you’ve made plain what part of the “Hoss” you are

[muir_redwoods]

After 2500 there seems to be little point in collecting any more, the points been made. The document is clearly anything but inerrant. As an alegorical writing, though, it has much to recommend it.

[HossB86]

At least you’ve made plain what part of the “Hoss” you are

Interesting... You can attack the poster but not the point.

Since you've resorted to personal attacks, you concede the argument. Thanks for playing.

Hoss (either end you prefer)

[HossB86]

If we are dead in trespasses and sins, how CAN we cooperate? All of the things you list cannot occur until after we are justified and saved. The only "participation" occurs AFTER we are saved -- we're not in the "process" of being saved. Once saved, we do the works that God has for us to do... We still struggle with sin, but we crave it no longer. We yearn to live for Christ.

How can we participate in our salvation BEFORE it occurs? We cannot. We are dead in sin. A corpse. What can a corpse do? Nothing. When we are quickened, we are brought to life in Christ -- saved -- and we then are changed (the Old Man passes away). The New Man man may be used of God to bring the gospel, to lead others to Him...but HE alone saves.

You listed Ephesians 2:8; let's not forget the rest:
Ephesians 2
"2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Did the thief on the cross do ALL of those things you listed? He believed.

The problem with the Roman Cult is thinking that we can do ANYTHING to cause, aid or abet our salvation. Rome says we have to have faith and do works. No. The works we do are because of our faith. Twisting James doesn't work. We can't participate in something that by our unsaved nature we abhor... It is a gift from God to an already dead soul. It is truly mercy and grace. The faith we have in him comes from him.

Hoss

[muir_redwoods]

You began the personal attacks when you suggested gratitude I was not your teacher. We’ll see what you can learn.

The point is that the rules of logic go back to before Aristotle and yet somehow you’ve reached adulthood oblivious to them. Briefly stated, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Provide some proof for virgin birth, burning (yet unconsumed ) bushes, the sun stopping in the sky, walking on water, resurrection from the dead, living within the belly of a whale, etc. etc and I’ll discuss it. Absent proof, reasonable doubt is the most logical position. No system of rational thought requires me to prove everyday experience when challenged by extraordinary claims that violate empirical experience.

If this is beyond your comprehension, that’s not the teacher’s fault.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Did the thief on the cross do ALL of those things you listed? He believed."

That's just it. All those things I listed can be summarized in one phrase, "To be incorporated into Christ." That is what Faith is, a living Faith: being in Him, because He is Love and He is the source of Life. Without Him, nothing in us is alive.

The Thief aligned himself with Christ, he chose Him in trust. This was cooperation in Salvation; this was incorporation into Christ.

The distinction between "a living faith" and "a dead faith" is of key importance, and here we find Paul in complete agreement with James:

1 Corinthians 13:2
"If I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing."

That is why our Salvation, gained for us by Christ's sacrifice, comes by all of those means of Salvation listed in Scripture. One can't just brush away Jesus' answer to the very question: "Lord, what must I do to be saved?"

---

Matthew 19:16
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”

His answer? "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

---

Mark 10:17 The Rich Man. As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’”

He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.”

Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to [the] poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”

At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

---

Luke 10:25
There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

---

Do not imagine that all the items in that Scriptural list I gave you, are not related to Salvation itself. Christ in Matthew 25 clearly lays out the very criteria of whether one is saved with the lambs on His right, or damned with the goats on His left.

This is what He equates with living faith, because here's the amazing thing: every one of them is surprised, both the saved and the damned. Both groups say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry? Lord, when did we see You thirsty?" Even those who were saved, did not know that these acts of mercy were acts of faith in Christ, because they, too, are perplexed: "Lord, when did we see you naked, or sick, or imprisoned?"

If you're perplexed about whether one has to have explicit "faith" before their works of mercy "count," --- well, ask Him. Evidently He was telling the truth back in Matthew 5: the merciful receive mercy.

[HossB86]

We don't choose Him. We can't. He chooses us. Anything afterward is according to His grace and will

he Thief aligned himself with Christ, he chose Him in trust. This was cooperation in Salvation; this was incorporation into Christ.

How? The thief was DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN. Until God changed his heart, there was no hope. The Thief "aligned" himself only in the sense that he expressed the faith in Christ THAT GOD GAVE HIM THROUGH GRACE. The Thief had no ability to align himself prior to God's calling him.

We cannot act while we are yet dead in our sins. We just can't. It's impossible. All of the scripture you quote is to show we cannot hope to live perfectly according to the law...only Christ did. Our faith in him comes from God to us by His mercy NOT OUR CHOICE.

Context is your friend.

Im still waiting for your response concerning Roman Catholic heresy regarding Mary being elevated to mediatrix and provider of salvation in CCC 969 in direct opposition to God's inerrant and infallible word. Do you agree with Rome, or with God? No false dilemma here...

Hoss

[HossB86]

You began the personal attacks when you suggested gratitude I was not your teacher. We’ll see what you can learn.

This is not only laughable, it's pitiable. Really? What preceded that? You questioned my education. Really.

You lost the point-- sorry.

Hoss

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[HossB86]

And to the point of it all... I started nothing:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3300896/posts?page=43#41

Nowhere did I compare you to horse anatomy. That was all you.

RM: thanks as always; I didn't push the abuse button on 41 as I'm thick-skinned enough to deal with it. Just surprised to be told I started it. I stand warned per policy.

Hoss

[Religion Moderator]

There were no abuse reports. And I didn’t say you started it. I pinged you both.

[HossB86]

Briefly stated, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Extraordinary? I find the "claims" to be true. I have not the first problem with The Bible. If YOU do, instead of trying to argue the finer points of argumentation, prove to me why I'm wrong! You've made the the claim about 2,500 issues or inconsistencies...not me-- so show us all the proof you're right,

Otherwise the claim of 2,500 whatever is just that: a claim.

Hoss (either end you prefer)

[HossB86]

Understood; sorry if I wasn’t clear—I didn’t assume you thought I had started it...that was by general explanation to the poster who made the claim.

Sorry for the trouble and thanks as always.

Hoss

[muir_redwoods]

Despite your whining, the inescapable fact remains that miracles, to be accepted as real, require proof. Scepticism about miraculous claims require no proof. If this is beyond your comprehensiom, as it seems increasingly likely, that’s not my responsibility to rectify. I can explain it for you, I cannot be expected to understand it for you.

[HossB86]

Despite your whining

Who's whining? I have no issue with the Bible, what it says or what it teaches. I believe it. I'm a Christian.

You are the one who came along and indicated some 2,500 flaws -- all I did was ask you to prove the flaws. You made the issue, not me. It's not up to me to prove anything to you. Personally, the very fact that we are alive is a miracle -- and the fact we are alive is proof to me. I know that most likely won't appeal to your high sense of logic and education -- it's not meant to.

Now, there is a major issue that hasn't been voiced, and that is the fact that we all have need of a savior. You do too, whether you believe it now or not. Have you actually read the Bible? Or do you just like to carp about it? The fact that this seems so important to you could be an indication that God is working on your heart....that's why I wanted you to prove your claims... we could at least discuss these issues.

God exists. We wouldn't exist without him.... the odds of lightning striking a puddle and cause life to progress against the law of Entropy requires it. How do eyes, one of the arguably most complex organs, evolve up into more complexity while avoiding Occam's Razor?

Do you know God? Have you sought to meet him in the pages of the Bible and through prayer? Would you like to? It seems to me this concern of yours with truth and fact is a good thing -- what would make it best would be the knowledge of the truth of God and the salvation he offers through the shed blood of his Son Jesus Christ.

Let's talk about that....

Hoss (either end you prefer)

[Mrs. Don-o]

Dear Hoss, Thank you for taking the time to consider these issues and share your convictions. That is something I appreciate about you.

If you will read my responses to you on this thread, you will see they are all Scriptural. It is Scripture vs Scripture --- or, more accurately, interpretation against interpretation.

You have not engaged with any of the Scriptures I cited. This is disappointing, but it is not entirely surprising: because of "confirmation bias", it is easy to simply say "My quotes are relevant, even absolute; your quotes are not relevant, they're distractions."

Then the argument descends into sheer foolishness, as the same "favorite" verses get repeated, bolded, set in bigger font sizes, color-enhanced, while the "unfavorite" verses are shunted off to the side ("I won't run down that rabbit trail") or passed by in silence.

Most Christians will agree with the principle that Scripture should be interpreted by Scripture. This seems promising until Scriptures are encountered which "apparently" contradict one another. Examples of these run into the hundreds, and they are ridiculously easy to find. Just a couple examples:

Num 6:5
"In all his days dedicated to God, no razor shall come upon his head. He shall be holy, and let the locks of hair grow freely."

BUT

1 Cor 11:14
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

---

Gen 2:3
"And God blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy."

BUT

Isaiah 1:13
"The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot abide: it is unrighteous."

BUT

Exodus 21:8
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

BUT

Romans 14:5
"One man esteemeth one day above another; another man esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

---

Eph 5:25,29
"Husbands, love your wives... for no man ever yet hated his own flesh."

Eph 6:2
"Honor thy father and thy mother."
BUT

Luke 14:26
"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

---

Gen 2:18
"And the Lord said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone.'"

BUT

1 Cor 7:1
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman."

---

All is not lost, because "apparent" contradictions can often be resolved by putting the statements into a framework that construes their meanings differently according to context (It commanded THIS in the OT but THAT in the NT; THIS was for Jews and THAT was for Gentiles; THIS was a temporary accommodation, THAT is the overall principle; this word meant thus-and-such in Classical Greek, but something else in Koine Greek) --- etc.

But then we're into the realm of "Your hermeneutic is baloney, nyaa nyaa nyaa.."

((Sigh...))

I'd like to get this discussion off on another point of departure. A more basic, shall we say foundational question. Here it is:

Are we created in the image and likeness of God? What does this consist of?

God bless you, Hoss.

[PapaBear3625]

He is not literally the father, because one cannot be a father without a mother.

God can be Father without being mother. The mother is the one who carries the embryo to term. In creating Adam and Eve, God needed no mother, He just created them from dirt.

In the case of Jesus, God caused Mary to become pregnant, which is something Fathers do.

[muir_redwoods]

So you’ve reached this point in your life still unclear on the differences between faith and logic? You can claim to believe the bible but you cannot, reasonably claim you believe it because it is logical. Our everyday empirical experience tells us no one walks on water. No one comes back from the grave. No one is born from a virgin. Logic tells us that the sun was never stopped in the sky since it is the earth that rotates; to claim the sun stopped is an error. To claim the existence of four legged winged things is an error. To call bats, birds is an error. To give two conflicting stories of the origin of Eve is an error. There are lots more; do your own research.

I need no savior, I was born just fine the first time.

[HossB86]

And God bless you too Mrs. Don-o...

While I respect your position, I must disagree that scripture does not contradict itself; sadly the issue here is the misinterpretation of scripture for centuries by the Roman Catholic Church.

Earlier, I put you to a question regarding the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church regarding Mary in CCC 969 and how this issue DIRECTLY contradicts scripture... and not just scripture, but Christ himself. What is your take on this? This is the key here, not apparently contradicting scriptures (which actually exegetically resolve), but the FALSE GOSPEL being taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

Let’s start there instead.

Hoss

[HossB86]

I need no savior, I was born just fine the first time.

And for this statement alone, I pity you more than I think I have ever pitied a human being that I've known. Sincerely.

You weren't born "just fine" -- none of us were. What exactly is the point of living for you? What is the ultimate point? What is your raison d'être? But beyond that, what is the ultimate reason that the human race exists?

Do you believe in the theory of evolution?

How does logic tell us these things you claim? You continually make these claims of the lack of logic, then fail continually to explain how they fail... instead you direct me to "do your own research."

If you are so very, very sure of all of your claims, then support them here. Explain your positions. Demonstrate the faults you have found. I find your lack of willingness to do this very telling as to the veracity of your claim.

Yet, I'm glad you are still replying because that means there is still opportunity for me and others to present to you the Gospel... the truth of why we were made, why we are fallen and why we need a Savior.

Please explain and clarify all of these issues that apparently have caused me to be deluded... show me the logic. Show us all the logic here.

Hoss