Posted on 12/07/2014 10:40:37 AM PST by wmfights
If they were a "requirement for salvation" then the all sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ would be nullified.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
The law is by definition works since the Greek word used indicates the requirement for some sort of action on man's part. That would give man the opportunity to claim salvation for actions he took. Jesus also defined what the "works" of God are.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Salvation is a free gift from God. The so called "works" or "deeds" being talked about are the results of the working of God through the saved person. Thus, salvation precedes the deeds.
Deuteronomy and Acts show us:
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Good references and points. Agree.
Then, simply, the gospel you preach, that Catholicism preaches, is NOT of grace. You have to add words to James' epistle to make it fit. He never said, "works of faith or it is dead and of no salvific value", he said that faith is dead if it has not works. A dead faith is a faith that is not a living, productive faith. What James doesn't say is that works are salvific - NOWHERE will you find those words.
Does God desire that we have works "meet for repentance"? Of course. He wants us to live holy lives without blame because we do harm to the cause of Christ when/if we commit sins - especially public ones. Just look how much damage depraved priests, bishops and popes have done to your church's reputation. Some non-Catholic pastors and leaders have also fallen into shame. But you are wrong to aver that God "requires" works, deeds and other fruits for our salvation because ONLY God can see our hearts. Others can see our overt acts and presume we are Christians, but we probably all know people that have faked it or are faking it.
Now, you certainly can go right ahead and believe your acts contribute to your eternal salvation, that if you don't do what your religion tells you to do - "holy" days of obligation, regular attendance at Mass, regular reception of the "Eucharist", regular penance, giving, rote prayers, obedience to whatever they tell you is the "truth" - regardless of evidence of Apostolic basis, striving to remain in a "state of grace", etc. - or you won't be saved, but you, as well as those who believe as you do, will face the all-holy and perfectly righteous God with the filthy rags of your own works of righteousness. It's either the righteousness of Christ or our own - NOT both. I will trust in Christ's to save me and I will live my life, through the grace of God, to please Him and do the works He has created me to do - NOT to be saved but because I am saved to HIS glory and praise.
You jumped from one chapter to another and omitted some important verses in the process. That appears as deceptive. Here are the verses you left out from James chapter 2 and it explains the passage you quoted more fully - IN CONTEXT:
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:1-26)
I agree with you, in the church age discourse...Prior to the Crucifixion, Jesus was preaching to and teaching Jews...They were all under the Law...Including Jesus...None of them went to heaven when they died...They all went to Paradise...
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
It's difficult to deny this verse and the many that support it...During the time period of the course taken by the book of Acts, it is clear (to me) that a (slow) transition was taking place...
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Being subject to the Law was extremely important during the ministry of Jesus...
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
AGAIN...
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I don't know how one can deny that those during Jesus' ministry and during the beginning of the book of Acts and Romans were under the Law...
Deuteronomy and Acts show us:
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Nah, that don't get it...You posted a verse showing the saints collected from heaven and deposited onto a piece of land...And I asked when this takes place...So????
I could post the entire book of James if you like. I was trying to post the most relevant passages. In spite of tradition, the chapter and verse markings are not inspired. Messiah and the Apostles did not use them when referencing scripture. They expected their listeners to allow the Holy Spirit to penetrate their hearts and minds with the words. Sometimes that made the heaters angry because they resisted the Holy Spirit.
It seems to me the problem is believing both the Apostle James, who was an Apostle who was chosen from the beginning and learned from Messiah and witnessed his resurrection, and the Apostle Paul, who was chosen out of season as the Apostle to the Gentiles. There is no Sola Fide in the scriptures. All the Apostles must be believed and harmonized. Peter, the Apostle to the Jews, wrote in his second epistle that the epistles of Paul were hard to understand and that some would wrest them unto their own destruction. John wrote in Revelation that Messiah was looking at our works. To Thyatira he used six nouns, and only one was faith; it is surrounded by works. He speaks of keeping "my works unto the end." We had better listen to Him and keep his works and his faith.
James wrote that faith without works is dead and that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. Paul wrote in Galatians we are not justified by works of the law, which is not the works James refers to. James refers to works of faith and love. Paul wrote that those who do the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. That is very strong warning to those who imagine they were already saved by faith alone, and very much in keeping with Messiah's warnings.
James 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Paul Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Peter 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Messiah 2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. 18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
“heaters” should read “hearers”
Who ever claimed chapter and verse markings are "inspired"??? What they are is a help to finding them when you are supposedly teaching from them. You've been repeatedly asked to do this as a courtesy to those reading the threads so they more easily find them in the Bible. That you resist doing so under the guise of expecting listeners to "allow the Holy Spirit to penetrate" hearts and minds with the words first assumes the reader HAS already learned the Scriptures. That is a wrong assumption. You have already been challenged on the way you grouped Scriptures, intermingling them and trying to force them to say what they don't. I would think you'd want to avoid the appearance of deceit?
It seems to me the problem is believing both the Apostle James, who was an Apostle who was chosen from the beginning and learned from Messiah and witnessed his resurrection, and the Apostle Paul, who was chosen out of season as the Apostle to the Gentiles. There is no Sola Fide in the scriptures. All the Apostles must be believed and harmonized. Peter, the Apostle to the Jews, wrote in his second epistle that the epistles of Paul were hard to understand and that some would wrest them unto their own destruction. John wrote in Revelation that Messiah was looking at our works.
No, Peter said that SOME of what Paul wrote was hard to understand by those who were "unlearned and unstable" and it was those people who wrested these Scriptures (yes, they WERE Scripture) to their own destruction. Nothing Paul wrote - and he did write the majority of the New Testament books - would be in contradiction to any other Scripture because it was the SAME Holy Spirit who inspired ALL the writers. It is unmistakable that the grace of God has ALWAYS been what saved anyone and whatever works were done they NEVER brought about the salvation of anyone.
Those who insist our works save us or who say they "contribute" to our salvation when accompanied by faith, totally miss the meaning of GRACE. It is "NOT by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us." (Titus 3:5) The passage I quoted from James 2:10 says that if we are guilty of even one sin, we are guilty of the WHOLE law. The wages of sin is death - all sin must be atoned by blood - but the gift (free gift) of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23). We are justified by faith because of God's grace and not by our works because by works shall NO flesh be justified. (Rom. 3:20; Gal. 2:16; Acts 13:39; Rom. 9:30; Gal. 3:11, 24; Heb. 7:19).
I have no problem believing ALL of Scripture because it all points to Jesus Christ, who gives to us eternal life and we shall never perish, be cast out, be lost or plucked from His hands. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe, but ONLY trusting in Christ, receiving Him by faith, gives eternal life. Whatever good things we do can never make us righteous in God's eyes. No one may boast in God's presence on all the mighty works they did in Christ's name, because He will tell them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:23) Without the shed blood of Christ as our covering we are doomed no matter how good we have been - and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (Phil. 3:9)
bttt
The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us women will be saved if they continue in faith and works (ie., charity and holiness with sobriety).
The Messiah tells the believers in Sardis that he knows their works and they are not perfect before God. They are ready to die. Yet they are believers because He tells them to remember how they received and heard, and to hold fast and repent. Further, if they will not watch (He warns us to watch all through the Gospels and Revelation), he will come as a thief, the implication being they will be like the five foolish virgins. He further only promises not to blot out the names from the book of life to those who overcome. He is very focused on our works and our obedience to his commandments. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments and do His good works of faith and love. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Well, since I've never had a child and can never have one, I guess by your interpretation I can't be saved? Do you see why Peter cautioned against those who were unlearned and unstable wresting Paul's writings? Do you see how jerking Scriptures around messes up sound doctrine?
I'll stick with what ALL of God's word tells me TYVM. I know I have eternal life because Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins and God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to my account. I'm going to heaven when I die because I heard the voice of the Good Shepherd and obeyed the Gospel by receiving the gift of God by His grace through faith and not by my works, holiness, charity OR sobriety. It's ALL Jesus. Thanks be to God to for His matchless grace!
Amen!
You interpreted and erroneously attributed your interpretation to me. I do see how comparing all the scriptures messes with the unsound doctrines of self appointed and rebellious Gentile apostles and prophets, who are false apostles and prophets; not appointed by our LORD Jedus Christ, not appointed in apostolic succession and not in communion with one holy catholic apostolic church.
I'll stick with what ALL of God's word tells me TYVM. I know I have eternal life because Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins and God has imputed the righteousness of Christ to my account. I'm going to heaven when I die because I heard the voice of the Good Shepherd and obeyed the Gospel by receiving the gift of God by His grace through faith and not by my works, holiness, charity OR sobriety. It's ALL Jesus. Thanks be to God to for His matchless grace!
I would that you would hear and obey all the scriptures, all the recorded words of our Lord Jesus Christ, all the admonitions of his true apostles, As it is written in 2 Peter and Mark: 1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
“Jedus” should read “Jesus”
You used Mark 13:27 which says He will send His angels to gather the elect. But look at verse 24 which shows when that is happening.
Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Notice that He is sending His angels to gather "following that distress". The distress He is talking about is found earlier and we see that is talking about the distress of the tribulation. So it is at the end of the tribulation that the angels are gathering the elect but that is not talking about the "elect" who have been saved during this age of grace.
Those who have been saved during this age of grace, which ends when the "fullness of the Gentiles" has been brought in, are "caught up in the twinkling of an eye". There are no angels sent to gather. We are all "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air. Notice that those "caught up" are also given their "incorruptible" bodies already at that time.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
>>Noah was carried to safety away from the flood.<<
As will those of us who have been saved during this age of grace. We will be "above" the destruction just as Noah was.
>>the wrath is what FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation and return of Christ<<
The wrath begins already at the sixth seal. We see that in Revelation 6.
Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
>>Whatever persecution Noah endured was BEFORE the flood.<<
Just as Christians today do and will increasingly as we get closer to the end times. But we will not be subjected to God's wrath.
>>He escaped the wrath of God which came by the flood on the wicked.<<
And so are we promised to "escape the wrath to come".
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
No where in scripture can we find that those who are faithful to God have been subjected in any way to His wrath. As Lot and Noah were saved from God's wrath so will those who are faithful during this age of grace.
At the end of this age of grace those faithful believers will be "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air. Then will start the time of tribulation on those who refused. There will be those who, after realizing what just happened, will understand that we were right and they will become believers. Most if not all of them will be killed for not following the anti Christ. During that time God's "elect" will be the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. They will suffer the wrath of God for their unbelief but will be saved through it.
No one denies they were under the law. However, it was not following the law that saved them. Just as with Abraham it was the FAITH that caused them to follow the law that saved them.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.