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To: unlearner; Iscool
>>The elect here are specifically gathered FROM EARTH.<<

You used Mark 13:27 which says He will send His angels to gather the elect. But look at verse 24 which shows when that is happening.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

Notice that He is sending His angels to gather "following that distress". The distress He is talking about is found earlier and we see that is talking about the distress of the tribulation. So it is at the end of the tribulation that the angels are gathering the elect but that is not talking about the "elect" who have been saved during this age of grace.

Those who have been saved during this age of grace, which ends when the "fullness of the Gentiles" has been brought in, are "caught up in the twinkling of an eye". There are no angels sent to gather. We are all "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air. Notice that those "caught up" are also given their "incorruptible" bodies already at that time.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

>>Noah was carried to safety away from the flood.<<

As will those of us who have been saved during this age of grace. We will be "above" the destruction just as Noah was.

>>the wrath is what FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation and return of Christ<<

The wrath begins already at the sixth seal. We see that in Revelation 6.

Revelation 6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

>>Whatever persecution Noah endured was BEFORE the flood.<<

Just as Christians today do and will increasingly as we get closer to the end times. But we will not be subjected to God's wrath.

>>He escaped the wrath of God which came by the flood on the wicked.<<

And so are we promised to "escape the wrath to come".

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

No where in scripture can we find that those who are faithful to God have been subjected in any way to His wrath. As Lot and Noah were saved from God's wrath so will those who are faithful during this age of grace.

At the end of this age of grace those faithful believers will be "caught up" to meet Jesus in the air. Then will start the time of tribulation on those who refused. There will be those who, after realizing what just happened, will understand that we were right and they will become believers. Most if not all of them will be killed for not following the anti Christ. During that time God's "elect" will be the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. They will suffer the wrath of God for their unbelief but will be saved through it.

38 posted on 12/09/2014 7:44:27 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

“Notice that He is sending His angels to gather ‘following that distress’. The distress He is talking about is found earlier and we see that is talking about the distress of the tribulation.”

That is exactly what I said. This gathering of the elect follows the signs in the heavens (namely the sun and moon being turned to darkness) which occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.

“So it is at the end of the tribulation that the angels are gathering the elect but that is not talking about the ‘elect’ who have been saved during this age of grace.”

I do not see any evidence to support this claim.

“Those who have been saved during this age of grace... are ‘caught up in the twinkling of an eye’. There are no angels sent to gather. We are all ‘caught up’ to meet Jesus in the air.”

It is exactly because not every detail is given in every passage that it is necessary to carefully study them to see if they are the same event or not. Just because Paul does not specifically explain the mechanism by which Church-age believers are gathered, does not mean that it is not done by angels. The term “gathering” is used by Paul to describe the rapture of the church:

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him...

“The wrath begins already at the sixth seal.”

The Day of Wrath comes AFTER the events of the sixth seal. All of these people of the earth wail NOW? Why? Over a third of the planet has died. There have been wars, famines, diseases, but no outcry until now about the Day of Wrath. Why? The world recognizes the signs in the heavens to mean the time of the Day of Wrath has finally arrived. How?

I propose it because they see the saints caught up and Christ’s coming in glory with the holy angels.

“Just as Christians today do and will increasingly as we get closer to the end times. But we will not be subjected to God’s wrath.”

I agree. The wrath comes at the “end” when the Day of the Lord arrives, when believers are raptured out.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

So Paul says that this resurrection occurs when Christ comes again, AND THEN comes the END. But what did Jesus say about the false peace, the wars, the famines, and the various troubles? This is the beginning of sorrows. It is not the END:

Matthew 24:4-8
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

After this is great persecution and the Great Tribulation.

Then, AFTER the Great Tribulation, there will be signs in the heavens, including the ultimate sign of Christ’s return.

After this comes the END. The coming of the Lord and the arrival of the Day of the Lord happen simultaneously. They both arrive suddenly and unexpectedly, “like a thief”.

When the Lord returns for us, the Day of the Lord arrives, and the fire of God punishes the wicked:

2 Peter 3:7, 10
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Where is the flaming fire from God during the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes?

This is NOT the END (the end is not yet). This is not the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord follows the false peace, the wars, the famines, the disease, the earthquakes, the persecution and abomination of desolation, the Great Tribulation, the signs in the heavens, and the return of Christ for believers.

At the end of Revelation 6, the world realizes that Day has arrived. In chapter 7 the 144,000 are sealed from all of Israel’s tribes, and an uncountable multitude from every nation and language suddenly appear in heaven OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION. How did they get there?

Then in chapter 8 we see the fire of God reigning down onto the earth which matches what Peter and Paul say about the flaming vengeance that arrives when Christ returns.

Revelation 8:5, 7, 8, 10
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.
Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.


42 posted on 12/09/2014 12:10:00 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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