Premillennialism and the Tribulation — Part IV: Pretribulationalism (continued)

Argument from the necessity of an interval between the translation and the establishment of the millennial kingdom. A careful study of related Scripture will demonstrate that an interval of time between the translation of the church and the coming of Christ to establish the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary because certain events must take place in the intervening period. In general, the argument depends upon four lines of evidence: (1) intervening events in heaven; (2) intervening events on earth; (3) the nature of the judgment of the Gentiles; (4) the nature of the judgment of Israel.

(1) Intervening events in heaven. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all Christians will appear before a judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to their works: “For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”1 This judgment is not a general judgment—it relates to those described as “we all,” which the context would seem to limit to believers in Christ in the present age.2 The character of the judgment is that of reward. By comparing this Scripture with a companion passage in 1 Corinthians 3:14-15, it is clear that the issue is not punishment for sin but reward for good works: “If any man’s work shall abide which he hath built thereon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.” The distinguishing of good and bad works in 2 Corinthians 5 is for the purpose of determining reward.

The character of this judgment seems to set it apart from judgments occurring at the second advent. The rewards anticipated in this judgment are described as imminent in several Scriptures. In 1 Peter 5:4 it is revealed, “And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away.” Again in Revelation 22:12, Christ declares, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me to render to each man according as his work is.”

While the time of the judgment is not explicit in any of the passages, certain other evidences seem to require this judgment as preceding and prerequisite to the second coming itself. If the four and twenty elders of Revelation 4:4 are interpreted as referring to the church—a disputed point—it would tend to confirm that judgment of the church has already taken place, as they are already crowned.3 A decisive evidence is found in Revelation 19:6-8 where the “wife” of the Lamb is declared to be arrayed “in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints” (Rev 19:8). The implication is evident that those who compose the “wife” are already translated or resurrected, and their righteous acts determined and rewarded. The marriage supper announced indicates that the marriage itself has already taken place. If the church is to be judged, rewarded, and joined to Christ in the symbol of marriage before the second advent, an interval of time is required.

(2) Intervening events on earth. If the premillennial interpretation of Scripture be assumed, it is evident that the tribulation period is a time of preparation for the millennium. Certain problems immediately arise if the church is not translated until the end of the tribulation. Nothing is more evident in the passage dealing with the translation of the church than the fact that every believer on that occasion is translated, that is, transformed from a body of flesh to an immortal body and caught up from the earth. The very act of translation also constitutes an absolute separation of all believers from all unbelievers. In a moment of time the greatest separation that could possibly be imagined takes place.

If the translation takes place after the tribulation, the question facing the posttribulationists is a very obvious one: Who is going to populate the earth during the millennium? The Scriptures are specific that, during the millennium, saints will build houses and bear children and have normal, mortal lives on earth. If all believers are translated and all unbelievers are put to death, there will be no one left to populate the earth and fulfill these Scriptures. While posttribulationism may satisfy the amillenarian who denies a future millennium, it presents a difficult problem to the premillenarian.

The Scriptures declare emphatically that life on earth in the millennium relates to a people not translated and not resurrected, a people still in the mortal bodies. Isaiah 65:20-25 states that there will be rejoicing in Jerusalem, a person dying at the age of one hundred years will be regarded as a child. It declares of the inhabitants: “They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them” (Isa 65:21-23). The passage closes with a description of millennial conditions, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah” (Isa 65:25). Obviously, only a people in mortal flesh build houses, plant, work, and have offspring. The concluding chapter of Isaiah continues the same theme. There will be judgment upon the wicked but peace to Jerusalem like a river. The description is not of a people translated or resurrected, but a people purged and judged worthy, though still in the flesh, of entrance into the millennial earth.

The best answer to the problem of who will populate the millennial earth is an obvious one. If the church is translated before the tribulation period, there is ample time for a new generation of believers to come into being from Jew and Gentile background to qualify for entrance into the millennial kingdom at the second coming of Christ. The problem of populating the millennium is thereby quickly solved and many relating Scriptures are given a natural and literal interpretation. It is significant that Alexander Reese in his closely reasoned attack upon the pretribulation position4 finds it convenient to ignore this major objection to posttribulationism entirely. What is true of Reese is true also of other posttribulationists.5 The posttribulational position leads logically to an abandonment of premillennialism altogether, or requires such spiritualization of the millennium until it becomes indistinguishable from an amillennial interpretation. Premillennialism demands an interval between the translation and the second coming to make possible a generation of believers who will enter the millennium.

This conclusion is confirmed by a study of the two major judgments which take place in connection with the establishment of the kingdom, which are related to the entire human race: (1) the judgment of Israel (Ezek 20:34-38), and (2) the judgment of the Gentiles (Matt 25:31-46). These judgments deal with the living Gentiles and Israelites who are on the earth at the time of the second advent.

According to Ezekiel 20:34-38, at the time of the second advent a regathering of Israel is brought about. It obviously takes considerable time—many weeks, if not months—to effect, but it is carried out precisely as the prophets indicate. Isaiah states that every means of transportation is pressed into use: “They shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah…” (Isa 66:20). That the regathering is to be complete to the last man—obviously not fulfilled by previous regathering—is declared in Ezekiel 39:25-29. It is explicitly stated, “I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there,” i.e., among the nations (Ezek 39:28).

The regathering process completed, a judgment of Israel is described in Ezekiel 20:34-38. God declares: “I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me…they shall not enter into the land of Israel…” (Ezek 20:37-38).

In the light of the details of this judgment, it should be clear to any impartial observer that the judgment deals with Israelites still in the flesh, not translated or resurrected. Further, the process takes time because of the geographic regathering that is involved. It is an event related to the establishment of the millennial kingdom but is subsequent by some weeks or months to the actual second advent. It relates to Israel racially alone and includes both believers and unbelievers. The judgment consists in putting to death all the rebels or unbelievers, leaving only the believers to enter the promised land.

This multitude of details sets this judgment apart from the translation of the church as much as any two events could be distinguished. The translation takes place in a moment. The translation relates only to believers, and it leaves unbelievers exactly as they were before. The translation of the church has no relation to promises of the land of Israel. The Ezekiel judgment has the promises of possession of the promised land as a primary objective—determining those qualified for entrance. The translation of the church is followed by arrival in heaven. The believers of Ezekiel 20 enter the land, not heaven, in bodies of flesh, not immortal bodies. The translation concerns Jewish and Gentile believers alike. This judgment has to do only with Israel.

It should be further evident that, if the translation of the church took place simultaneously with, the second advent to establish the kingdom, the Ezekiel judgment would be both impossible and unnecessary as the separation of believers from unbelievers would have already taken place. It may therefore be concluded from the nature of the judgment of Israel that an interval is required between the translation of the church and the judgment of Israel during which a new generation of Israelites who believe in Christ as Savior and Messiah comes into being and who are waiting for His second advent to the earth to establish the millennial kingdom.

A similar conclusion is reached by the study of the judgment of the Gentiles described in Matthew 25:31-46. Taking the Ezekiel passage and the Matthew passage together, the whole population of the earth at the second coming of Christ is in view. If all Israelites are dealt with in Ezekiel, all the others described as the “nations” or the Gentiles are in the Matthew judgment. In the Matthew passage, like that of Ezekiel 20, no mention is made of either resurrection or translation, though both are often read into the passage by posttribulationists somewhat desperate to combine all the passages.

The separation of Matthew 25 is similar to that of Ezekiel 20. The unbelievers, described as the “goats,” are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death, whereas the “sheep” enter the kingdom prepared for them—the millennial kingdom. While the judgment in Matthew 25, as in Ezekiel 20, is based on outward works, it is true here as elsewhere in Scripture that works are taken as evidence of salvation. The good works of the “sheep” in befriending the “brethren” (the Jewish people) is an act of kindness which no one but a believer in Christ would perform during the tribulation when Christian as well as Jew is hated by all the world. Ironside interprets the passage: “But this judgment, like the other, is according to works. The sheep are those in whom divine life is manifested by their loving care for those who belong to Christ. The goats are bereft of this, and speak of the unrepentant, who did not respond to Christ’s messengers.”6 The result of the judgment of the Gentiles is the purging of all unbelievers, with the believers, who are thereby left, granted the privilege of entrance into the kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles is an individual judgment, though some premillenarians have seen in it a description of national judgment. This misconception has arisen from the English translation where the Greek word ethne is rendered “nation.” It is, of course, the same word precisely as would be used for Gentiles individually. Inasmuch as the nature of the judgment is individual, however, the use of “nation” in a political sense is misleading. No national group can qualify as a group as either a “sheep” or a “goat” nation, and no nation inherits either the kingdom or everlasting fire for its works. Eternal judgment must of necessity apply to the individual.

A comparison of this judgment of Gentiles again confirms the fact that this is an entirely different event than the translation of the church. This is, first of all, demonstrated by the time of the judgment. It occurs after the second advent and after a throne is set up in the earth. The translation of the church, according to all viewpoints, takes place before Christ actually arrives on earth. The judgment of the Gentiles results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers. The translation of the church takes believers out from among unbelievers, and leaves unbelievers untouched. This judgment also distinguishes the individuals involved on a racial basis. coming designated as (b). (a) At the time of the translation, the saints will meet the Lord in the air. (b) At the time of the second coming, Christ will return to the Mount of Olives which on that occasion will undergo a great transformation, a valley being formed to the east of Jerusalem where the Mount of Olives was formerly located (Zech 14:4-5). (a) At the coming of Christ for the church, the living saints are translated. (b) At the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom, there is no translation whatever. (a) At the translation of the church, Christ returns with the saints to heaven. (b) At the second coming, Christ remains on the earth and reigns as King. (a) At the time of the translation, the earth is not judged and sin continues. (b) At the time of the second coming, sin is judged and righteousness fills the earth.

(a) The translation is before the day of wrath from which the church is promised deliverance. (b) The second coming follows the great tribulation and outpoured judgment and brings them to climax and culmination in the establishment of the millennial kingdom. (a) The translation is described as an imminent event. (b) The second coming will follow definite prophesied signs. (a) The translation of the church is revealed only in the New Testament. (b) The second coming of Christ is the subject of prophecy in both Testaments. (a) The translation concerns only the saved of this age. (b) The second coming deals with saved and unsaved. (a) At the translation, only those in Christ are affected. (b) At the second coming, not only men are affected but Satan and his hosts are defeated and Satan is bound.

While it is evident that there are some similarities in the two events, these do not prove that they are the same. There are similarities also between the first and the second coming of Christ, but these have been separated by almost two thousand years. These similarities confused the Old Testament prophets but are easily deciphered by us today. Undoubtedly after the church is translated, tribulation saints will be able to see the distinction of the coming for translation and the coming to establish the kingdom in a similar clarity.

Before considering the opposing schools of thought represented in the posttribulational and midtribulational viewpoints, it is necessary first to examine an offshoot of pretribulationism known as the partial rapture view. While rejected by the overwhelming majority of pretribulationists and considered by them a doctrinal aberration, its issues must be presented before leaving the general field of pretribulationism. To this the next discussion will be devoted.

This article was taken from the Theological Journal Library CD and posted with permission of Galaxie Software.

1 All quotations from Scripture are from the American Standard Version (1901) unless otherwise stated.

2 Cf. L. S. Chafer, Systematic Theology, IV, 404-6; E. S. English, Re-thinking the Rapture, pp. 81-84.

3 According to the Authorized Version of Revelation 5:9-10, the twenty-four elders are described as redeemed by the blood of Christ and made kings and priests. This would unmistakably identify them as saints and in all probability the church in particular. In the text adopted for translation in the American Standard Version and the Revised Standard Version, the “us” of verse 9 is removed, and the “us” of verse 10 is made “them.” This would make it possible to identify the elders as angels rather than men. Scholars are divided on the issue. Kelly declares the elders are the church. “They are clearly saints and at home in glory,” a conclusion which he states “few will deny” (Lectures on the Book of Revelation, p. 98). James Moffatt in the Expositor’s Greek Testament (V, 378) identifies the elders as angels and appeals to mythology for support. The interpretation ultimately rests on exegesis as the improved text leaves the question open. Many considerations would point to identification with the church. For further discussion cf. E. Schuyler English, Re-thinking the Rapture, pp. 92-98.

5 No answer is given to this argument and it is not mentioned in Fromow’s Triumph through Tribulation.

A decisive evidence is found in Revelation 19:6-8 where the “wife” of the Lamb is declared to be arrayed “in fine linen, bright and pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints” (Rev 19:8). The implication is evident that those who compose the “wife” are already translated or resurrected, and their righteous acts determined and rewarded. The marriage supper announced indicates that the marriage itself has already taken place.

If the translation takes place after the tribulation, the question facing the posttribulationists is a very obvious one: Who is going to populate the earth during the millennium? The Scriptures are specific that, during the millennium, saints will build houses and bear children and have normal, mortal lives on earth. If all believers are translated and all unbelievers are put to death, there will be no one left to populate the earth and fulfill these Scriptures.

These are strong arguments against a traditional post-tribulation rapture, but they do not successfully support a pre-tribulation rapture.

“A careful study of related Scripture will demonstrate that an interval of time between the translation of the church and the coming of Christ to establish the millennial kingdom is absolutely necessary.”

Correct. But when is this interval? It is certainly the Day of the Lord which comes AFTER the Great Tribulation.

The article shows evidence for two distinct events regarding the return of the Lord. And it does show that a period of time is required between them. But it does not support that the period of time is the Great Tribulation.

Rather, the rapture of the church will take place after the Great Tribulation but not at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week because these are two DIFFERENT events at different times. The Great Tribulation will begin, not at the opening of the seals, but at the abomination of desolation in the middle of this “week.” And it will end with signs in the heavens, followed immediately by Christ’s return for His bride, the Church, made up of both Gentile AND Jewish believers. Then the Day of Wrath begins and includes the seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls of judgment in Revelation.

“The best answer to the problem of who will populate the millennial earth is an obvious one. If the church is translated before the tribulation period, there is ample time for a new generation of believers to come into being from Jew and Gentile background to qualify for entrance into the millennial kingdom at the second coming of Christ.”

Not the best, nor the correct answer. The author leaves no plausible explanation for what is clearly described in Matthew 24 regarding Christ’s return:

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When does this “coming” of Christ occur? It is clearly AFTER the Great Tribulation. But how can the preceding events be reconciled with Revelation?

Christ said the Great Tribulation will be immediately followed by signs in the heavens, including the sun and moon being turned dark. But this does not happen in Revelation at the END of the trumpet and bowl judgments. It happens BEFORE them at the opening of the sixth seal.

Paul clearly ties the rapture of the church to the onset of the Day of the Lord (which is the Day of Wrath for unbelievers and Day of Christ for believers).

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:10
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Notice that both the return of Christ and the Day of the Lord are said to happen “like a thief in the night.” Further, Christ describes His return AFTER the Great Tribulation with these same words:

Matthew 24:43-44
But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Please study the Day of the Lord. You will find that it clearly FOLLOWS the signs in the heavens. The Great Tribulation precedes those signs.

The Great Tribulation is a time of unprecedented trouble which affects ALL flesh. The Day of Wrath only affects unbelievers.

The Day of Wrath is a period of destruction. Daniel’s Seventieth Week includes much destruction but begins with peace.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Excellent article as usual...I pondered whether to voice any oppositions I had to the article and my contrary nature won out...

While the judgment in Matthew 25, as in Ezekiel 20, is based on outward works, it is true here as elsewhere in Scripture that works are taken as evidence of salvation. The good works of the “sheep” in befriending the “brethren” (the Jewish people) is an act of kindness which no one but a believer in Christ would perform during the tribulation when Christian as well as Jew is hated by all the world.

I do not believe the 'works' are evidence of salvation...I believe they are a requirement for salvation, along with faith...

No where do these people pass the muster by faith alone...The emphasis is on works...

As per the goats:

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

These guys recognize Jesus as the Lord...There is no mention of Eph. 2:8,9 but everything is 'works'...

I am one of those...I do not believe it is a 'misconception'...And it does make for interesting discourse...

But overall, I'm right with ya....

No one is ever saved by works or faith+works in the OT, NT or end times. I agree with Walvoord, the works mentioned are the fruits of salvation by God’s Grace effecting regeneration of the believer.

There is only one Gospel and it was preached by all the apostles (1 Corinthians 15). There are no other gospels out there.

Where we sometimes get wrapped around these passages of “the righteous” or “those doing good” entering the Kingdom is because we don’t read Paul’s epistles fully. He spends a good amount of time telling us that those saved by Grace are conformed to the Image of the Son. That is only possible by Christ abiding in us and we in Him. This means doing what Christ told us to do. We do so because He paid for us with such a price.

Our earthly fathers do not measure their love for us in the chores we do for them. They are, however, well pleased at our love back, our earnest work showing them we believe their example and strive to imitate it. That is faith in action not works.

For if at some point the Gospel changes then that means it is no longer Grace but works.

Sorry for the length but even gentlemen like Walvoord warned us of the hyper dispensationalism even in his time. The type which asserts Peter et al. preached a different Gospel than Paul. One Gospel, One Body of Christ.

“Some of us believe there will be a very large war in Israel which marks the 7 year period of the Tribulation”

Certainly war will happen during that time, but first is the false peace offered by a false messiah. Wars follow.

Matthew 24:4-6
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Revelation 6:2-4
And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Note that the second horse rider takes peace away. This means there was a kind of peace before in order to be taken away.

“Similar, but not at all the same...In the Rapture Jesus comes for his church...In the scripture described in Mat. 24, Jesus comes for the tares, not the wheat”

The parable of wheat and tares was not discussed in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24). That parable is in Matthew 13. It occurs at the end when Christ establishes His kingdom.

Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness...

But in Matthew 24, the “elect” are gathered, not tares:

Matthew 24:30-31
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is important to study these things carefully, without a preconceived bias. The pre-trib rapture sounds like everything fits together perfectly, until you actually read these passages carefully. It just does not fit. As much as I would like it to be true, I have to accept what the scriptures say and follow man made doctrines.

But in Matthew 24, the “elect” are gathered, not tares:

Matthew 24:30-31 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You'll notice that the elect do not come from the earth...They come from heaven...That will be the Bride...

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Those who were taken away were those who were partying, the they in verse 38...They didn't know of the coming flood til it was upon them...

Noah knew the flood was coming so we know he is not the one who didn't know the flood was coming and taken away...

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Are you the goodman of the house??? Why are you worried about your house if you are going up in the Rapture??? This is not the (a) Raputure...If the goodman of the house knew in what watch the Lord was going to show up, he would have headed for the hills...For safety...

Revelation 6:2-4 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Note that the second horse rider takes peace away. This means there was a kind of peace before in order to be taken away.

The first horse rider was creating a lot of havoc before the 2nd one heads out...

It is important to study these things carefully, without a preconceived bias.

So if someone doesn't agree with you, he/she hasn't studied carefully...I think I will disagree with that...

You'll notice that the elect do not come from the earth...They come from heaven...That will be the Bride...

I see this instead as a reference to the prophecy of Moses. The "out most parts of heaven" match "one end of heaven to another" and God is gathering the dispersed of Israel.

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

I appreciate your feedback, especially when you are making a case from scripture which is the final arbitrator of these matters until the Lord returns and we understand fully. I did not intend to insult you. What I said applies to myself as well. I do not have all the answers. Ideas that you or others share from scripture I will most definitely check out. And you have shared some though-provoking ideas which I will continue to study.

But I do not see your point about the Matthew 24 return of Christ referring to the Church returning with Him from Heaven. First, it would make no sense to say the elect needed to be gathered together. They would all be with Christ. Second, the Olivet discourse as Mark records it includes a detail that contradicts this notion as well:

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The elect here are specifically gathered FROM EARTH. The four winds of heaven refers to the event being global. Much of the discourse revolves around events in Israel and particularly in Jerusalem. But this one is global.

“Those who were taken away were those who were partying”

True, but they were “taken away” by the flood. Noah was carried to safety away from the flood. The ark is a symbol of our blessed hope. The flood represents God’s wrath. He will not destroy the earth again by a flood but rather by fire. BUT, AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, the wrath is what FOLLOWS the Great Tribulation and return of Christ. Whatever persecution Noah endured was BEFORE the flood. He escaped the wrath of God which came by the flood on the wicked.

“The first horse rider was creating a lot of havoc before the 2nd one heads out”

The first rider appears to represent the rise of anti-Christ to power which we know from Daniel will be done through flattery rather than war. The symbol of a bow without arrows may represent disarmament. Around here we recognize this threat politically even if not based on prophecy. We all know the dangers of gun control and nuclear disarmament.

What’s more important though is recognizing the correlation between the Olivet passages and Revelation 6:

1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)

2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)

3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)

4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)

5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)

6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)

7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)

What happens when the world sees the Day of Wrath has arrived? They hide and flee in terror according to Revelation 6:15-18. They attribute their terror to Christ (the Lamb). What did Christ say people will do when He returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Christ said “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30)

How is it that Christ describes His return immediately AFTER the tribulation and signs in heaven, and yet Revelation includes a period of wrath on the earth in the form of seven trumpet and seven bowl judgments? How do you account for the correlation between the Olivet discourse and Revelation 6 if the return of Christ described in the Olivet Discourse is to occur at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week (assuming that week includes the trumpet and bowl judgments)?

If the return of Christ in Matthew 24:30 correlates to His return in Revelation 19:11-21, I would like to understand how Revelation 8-18 fits into the Olivet discourse. I believe His return as described in Matthew 24:30 represents His return for His bride which includes the translation of living saints who “come out of the Great Tribulation” in Revelation 7.

In the Revelation 19 account I do not read of all the tribes of the earth mourning. Rather I see the anti-Christ gathering his armies to fight.

Consider what happens when Christ returns for the church here:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
It is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This refers to His return for the church because it is at that time they receive rest. But notice that it is also at that time that the fiery judgment of God’s wrath begins, culminating in eternal punishment of the wicked (when they die from the judgments of that Day). This does not correlate with the opening of the first seal. In fact, none of the seal judgments represent the judgment of fire from God. That begins in Revelation 8 and is carried out by angels:

Revelation 8:5-7
Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

This lines up with the judgment of God by fire which follows the return of Christ. He will come in days like those of Noah, but He will judge the inhabitants of the earth with fire and not water. At this point, the bride of Christ is safely in Heaven, the 144,000 elect Jews have been sealed and protected from divine wrath, and those on earth who have seen the glorious appearing of Christ will mourn and hide because they know that His fiery wrath is about to be poured out on the earth.

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