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To: boatbums
The Apostle James is talking about how OTHERS see our faith, how that a genuine faith WILL show by the fruit it bears. That is why James repeats phrases like "you see" and "seest thou". Man looks on the outward appearance, God looks at the heart. We are saved by grace through faith, alone, but it is a faith that is not alone. The fruit genuine faith bears does NOT contribute to our salvation, because our salvation is NOT by works - we don't earn, deserve or merit eternal life - it is ALL by grace.


So, even before the law, after the law, after Christ came the first time, before and after He returns again, it is ALWAYS by grace that God saves us. The sheep did the courageous and right things during the Tribulation because they WERE sheep already. The "goats" were always goats and their actions showed it. Someone helping the Jews during the Tribulation did not turn a goat into a sheep, it just demonstrated that he/she really was a sheep.
  1. The Apostle James is writing to Jewish believers in Messiah. He is not discussing how others view our profession of faith. He writes to a "vain man" who imagines we can be saved by faith alone without works. He is concerned, just as is the LORD, that our faith pass the test. It must have fruit, works of faith or it is dead and of no salvific value. The Catholics have this right. No presumption, no despair, just enduring faith bringing forth good works until the day we are judged.
  2. We are not saved by faith alone.
  3. We are saved by the grace of God.
  4. God requires works, deeds, fruit to accompany our faith, whether others see it or not. The parables of the ten virgins, talents, and sheep and goats, demonstrate this truth.


1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. 26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 posted on 12/08/2014 7:00:10 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
The Apostle James is writing to Jewish believers in Messiah. He is not discussing how others view our profession of faith. He writes to a "vain man" who imagines we can be saved by faith alone without works. He is concerned, just as is the LORD, that our faith pass the test. It must have fruit, works of faith or it is dead and of no salvific value. The Catholics have this right. No presumption, no despair, just enduring faith bringing forth good works until the day we are judged. We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by the grace of God. God requires works, deeds, fruit to accompany our faith, whether others see it or not. The parables of the ten virgins, talents, and sheep and goats, demonstrate this truth.

Then, simply, the gospel you preach, that Catholicism preaches, is NOT of grace. You have to add words to James' epistle to make it fit. He never said, "works of faith or it is dead and of no salvific value", he said that faith is dead if it has not works. A dead faith is a faith that is not a living, productive faith. What James doesn't say is that works are salvific - NOWHERE will you find those words.

Does God desire that we have works "meet for repentance"? Of course. He wants us to live holy lives without blame because we do harm to the cause of Christ when/if we commit sins - especially public ones. Just look how much damage depraved priests, bishops and popes have done to your church's reputation. Some non-Catholic pastors and leaders have also fallen into shame. But you are wrong to aver that God "requires" works, deeds and other fruits for our salvation because ONLY God can see our hearts. Others can see our overt acts and presume we are Christians, but we probably all know people that have faked it or are faking it.

Now, you certainly can go right ahead and believe your acts contribute to your eternal salvation, that if you don't do what your religion tells you to do - "holy" days of obligation, regular attendance at Mass, regular reception of the "Eucharist", regular penance, giving, rote prayers, obedience to whatever they tell you is the "truth" - regardless of evidence of Apostolic basis, striving to remain in a "state of grace", etc. - or you won't be saved, but you, as well as those who believe as you do, will face the all-holy and perfectly righteous God with the filthy rags of your own works of righteousness. It's either the righteousness of Christ or our own - NOT both. I will trust in Christ's to save me and I will live my life, through the grace of God, to please Him and do the works He has created me to do - NOT to be saved but because I am saved to HIS glory and praise.

25 posted on 12/08/2014 11:01:56 AM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: af_vet_1981
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

You jumped from one chapter to another and omitted some important verses in the process. That appears as deceptive. Here are the verses you left out from James chapter 2 and it explains the passage you quoted more fully - IN CONTEXT:

    My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

    What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:1-26)

26 posted on 12/08/2014 12:18:06 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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