Posted on 09/02/2014 12:11:48 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
Why did God allow for the striking-down of people in the Old Testament? How is this reconciled with the dogma of a loving God?
Protestants and modern-day "Jews" don't have an answer for this -- one beyond dualism or "mystery", I mean. But the Church does.
There is mortal sin, and there is venial sin (1 John 5:17). Mortal sin -- willful and of grave nature -- separates one from God, practically killing the soul. Venial sin -- all other -- must simply be cleansed, and it does not eternally separate us from Him. And this distinction is shown in the Old Testament.
Among mortal sins punished: irreverence (2 Samuel 6:1-7), despair/disbelief (Numbers 11:1-3), and false claims of authority (Numbers 16). These crimes have always been condemned.
Why did punishment change from body-centric to soul-centric? First, it didn't, because unrighteous people were also kept from entering the Limbo of the Patriarchs, which, after Christ's Sacrifice, later led to Heaven. Second, temporal punishment was the only way to get at the Jews' consciences: As liberal scholars love to point out, the majority of Jews did not believe in an afterlife!
God does not desire death, though it can be used to give us the best chance at salvation (2 Peter 3). (I think here of St. Rita and her sons.) Even in the old days, He merely wanted a contrite heart (Psalm 51:17), and He wanted devotion.
There is no change in principle: God is immutable.
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” Something being a *mystery of the faith*
is the typical fallback for Catholics when
they have something they can’t explain
because it contradicts Scripture.
Prots don’t use that one.”
Good catch there. Until you mentioned this, i had not thought to point out that in 15 years, I’ve not heard that one once.
I don’t know, has been used. But that is not a bad thing. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers usually has none.
But that Protestant viewpoint is not objectively established. It's really not the same thing, because the post is pointing out objective facts.
Honestly, does Rome teach that even you can declare truth by fiat, so that without referencing any Protestants works, and failing to make any distinction btwn historical Protestantism based upon its distinctive view of Scriptural being the supreme authority as literally being the word of God versus the various essentially non-Protestant liberal denoms, you blithely declare what the Protestant view is not, and then complain a Protestant viewpoint is not objectively established?!
It is you who fail to substantiate what you are trying to refute, and passing it off as a universal view. And you even host a blog! No wonder Rome used to forbid such of her laity. You embarrass her (though she lacks clothes herself).
How much of classic evangelical commentaries such as Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Adam Clark, John Gill, and the like have you consulted? Do you really believe they only hold that punishment for sin is relegated to the soul in the after life? Or that God does not punish sin because He is a jealous God, Scripturally understood? Or that there is no distinctions in sins and accountability, except that all of them leave you a sinner in need of salvation?
You are not alone. Yet he is privately discerning the possibility of God calling him to the priesthood.
I wonder what he privately discerns in this picture:
Matthew Olson observes the dogmas, doctrines, and practices of the Church.
Matthew Olson, with :His Excellency: Bishop Anthony B. Taylor.
No why did you d that?! You just ruined a key RC tactic!
Protestants and modern-day "Jews" don't have an answer for this...
The Truth is in God's Word, not in ANY denomination. Consider how much blood has been shed by the religious who sow strife and division these last 2,000 years? I would be more concerned about the religious who murder in direct violation of God's Law of Love
1 John 5:17 has absolutely nothing to do with mortal or venial sins. The amplified version makes the verse quite clear when placed in context. It takes a theologian to misunderstand it.
1 John 5:16-19 (AMP)
16 If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven].
18 We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him].
19 We know [positively] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] is under the power of the evil one.
The wages of sin is death. This passage is talking about physical death of a Believer as the result of sin, which in many cases, gives Satan access to do what he does - steal, kill, and destroy. (John 10:10, Romans 6:23) Note verse 18 above - the evil one touches him (the Believer walking in love with the presence of God) not. Consider that in the context above. All unrighteousness is sin. Fear caused Job's suffering. Unbelief, fear, and rebellion led to the premature death of a generation of Israel in the wilderness when they refused to possess the Promised Land. There is no pecking order of sin. Sin is sin. Unbelief and fear is just as bad as idolatry and fornication because they are all rejecting God and His Word. Sin separates the Believer from fellowship with the Father. It does not change their spiritual standing - its very important to grasp this Truth. See Romans 8:32-39 - Nothing can separate the Believer from God's Love.
If a Believer does sin, miss the mark in some way or step out of love, there's an "app" for that - 1 John 1.
A similar point was made in Luke 13 by Jesus. The Galileans whose blood Pilate mingled with sacrifices, and the 18 killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them. Death (satan) is stalking everyone like a roaring lion. (1 Peter 5:8-9) Don't make it easy on him by living a sinful life. Receive the free gift of Salvation. Believe His Word, not the reasoning of men.
God does not desire death, though it can be used to give us the best chance at salvation (2 Peter 3). (I think here of St. Rita and her sons.)
Poppycock. This sounds like part of a jihadist martyrdom pep talk. Death is an enemy. The very passage you listed contradicts your point - The Lord ... is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (AMP)
BTW - I think it unwise to place your faith in legends, superstitions, or even personal experience. Stick with God's Word. His Living Word is Truth, and more than sufficient. The Holy Spirit is an excellent Guide and Comforter.
James 1:21 (AMP)
21 So get rid of all uncleanness and the rampant outgrowth of wickedness, and in a humble (gentle, modest) spirit receive and welcome the Word which implanted and rooted [in your hearts] contains the power to save your souls.
1 Peter 1:23-25 (AMP)
23 You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God.
24 For all flesh (mankind) is like grass, and all its glory (honor) like [the] flower of grass. The grass withers and the flower drops off,
25 But the Word of the Lord (divine instruction, the Gospel) endures forever. And this Word is the good news which was preached to you.
See also Romans 10, Ephesians 5:26, 6:10-18, Galatians 3, 1 Timothy 4, Hebrews 4:10-12
John 10:10 is the dividing line of the Bible. Until you fully grasp this Truth, the Bible will be a confusing document, which is why you have so many wacky religious ideas invented by men who should know better.
John 10:10 (AMP)
10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows).
That is exactly what I try to teach to my children. God’s view of this is diametrically opposite to man’s view.
“He” and “God” should be cap H and G when referring to our LORD.
I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!
lol
Is murder a mortal sin?
Uh...
...so America would not feel guilty over killing off a million or so of it's future citizens every year???
But just who can resist trying to be better than GOD?
No, no, NO!
They go to be with Jesus as soon as they die!!
--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary!)
Read the Book:
Near the middle you'll find a short story about Job.
Uh... someone's been to Ash Wednesday services?
All of which is irrelevant to your supposition that the article provides anything close to an “objective” viewpoint.
Most of the Protestants that I know do not consider Rome to be infallible. To be honest, most start from the position that Rome’s teachings differ from scripture on a number of points of doctrine. Again, that is a differing OPINION from the Catholic OPINION.
What next?! This week we have had one RC tell us that if one goes to Mass every day for three years, then they will hear the entire Bible read aloud,
and later respond to my evidence that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery by charging me with possessing disinformation, and later ignores posts refuting him,
then another RC states the 7 apocryphal books in the Old Testament were the most cited by Christ in those Gospels, and ignores posts challenging him,
then another RC presents Protestantism as being one entity having no answer to a question, except for two which he cares not to document, but which issue he gives a cursory answer against, then complains about a Protestant viewpoint not being objectively established, and ignores posts reproving him,
And now we have another RC poster recommending reading the book “When Bad Things Happen to Good People” by Rabbi Kushner. Which is fundamentally heretical, which they would know if they read evangelical apologetical sites (but most do not as they also reprove Rome).
Where Was God? Article contributed by Stand To Reason
One Wrong Answer
One answer is not going to work: the picture of a broken-hearted God, victimized, agonizing over events that are out of His control.
This “finite God” view is Rabbi Harold Kushner’s answer in Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People? Evil is bigger than God whose hands are tied by the laws of nature and the will of man. Limited in power, He weeps with us at a world out of control.
According to Kushner, this should bring us comfort. “God, who neither causes nor prevents tragedies, helps by inspiring people to help,” he writes.1
Clearly, the God Rabbi Kushner has in mind is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the One who brought the universe into existence with a single thought. This is not the God of the Exodus or the empty tomb. A God equally victimized by the march of evil may commiserate with other victims, but He cannot inspire or rescue. He is not worthy of praise, prayer, or trust. Nor is there any real comfort to be gained from one so impotent. - https://bible.org/article/where-was-god
outrageous is the claim of the Rabbi that God is not “all-powerful.” Specifically, he does not “control the laws of nature.” On the contrary, both the Rabbi’s Bible and the New Testament teach that he is all-powerful and does control the laws of nature.
The Rabbi’s Bible (and my Bible)—the only authority he or I have for making any pronouncements about God at all—gives more comfort than the Rabbi is willing to offer. In Genesis 50:20, Joseph explains to his brothers why their murderous treatment of him is not meaningless: “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.” God did indeed (contrary to the Rabbi’s assertion) have an intention in this evil. “God meant it (the evil) for good.” (See also Genesis 45:7 and Psalm 105:17).
This is the final pastoral comfort, and I do not write this without 30 years of seeing it in people’s lives. From the hundreds that have testified with breathtaking faith, just two weeks ago a woman stood up at the Billy Graham Training Center in Asheville, NC, during a testimony time in front of 450 people and spoke of throwing herself across the grave of her dead son. With tears, she thanked God that someone pointed her to the sovereign control of an all-wise, all-loving God. Her husband stood with her, and together they spoke of the strength and stability and hope and, finally, the joy that comes from knowing that they are not in a random world, but one where God assures them that the worst things will indeed work for the good of those who love God (Romans 8:28). This I have seen in the lives of hundreds of those who have suffered far more than I have.
No, Rabbi Kushner. Your soft words offer no hope in the end. The foundation is false. And the consolation does not satisfy the God-given passions for truth and meaning in the human heart. May the Lord open your eyes to the One who died for your sins and rose again, Jesus Christ, so that if you would trust him, you would be saved from the wrath of God that your blasphemy and my contaminated anger deserve. - John Piper, http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/response-to-rabbi-kushner
Adjective
objective (comparative more objective, superlative most objective)
1. Of or relating to a material object, actual existence or reality.
I presume this was what was meant by the apparently hit and run poster.
“Something being a *mystery of the faith* is the typical fallback for Catholics when they have something they can’t explain because it contradicts Scripture”.
After I read your first post I was beginning to think you had started going back to Mass. The reason? Your answer was 100% Catholic.
Then you come up with the usual Catholic bashing so I just need to weigh in.
God kills people because He can! We are all his creation. We are not to question God. We belong to Him and He decides when we live and die and if He decides to take us out of this world so be it. God is God and will not be questioned!
Rabbi Kushner’s book is recommended to groups who minister to grieving individuals. It’s a look at grief. Have you read it? If not, then how do you honestly know about it?
On you other questions, please talk to the people who posted those items. I am not the referee here.
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