Why do Protestant lay people hate clergy?

The site you link on this Arnold Murray is clearly a cult site itself.

I do not subscribe to that eschatology, yet some SDA and other sites i disagree with also have some worthy material i may reference, but which does not infer sanction of all else.

I had not been to that site for 4-5 years.

There were multiple, so i do not know which one.

Do you two have any apologies yet?

There is no warrant for any apologies either in regret or apologetics, that latter being because all you asked was,

What do you mean by "deception when it comes"?

But deception is Murray's game.

Peter's, "á¼€Î½Î±Î³ÎµÎ½Î½á½±Ï‰" (anagennaÃ…Â) is not really a birth at all, but a change in state of mind,

Which leaves you sounding more like a Christian Scientist. Anagennaō denotes birth, and an event in the past, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1Pe 1:23)

Yeshua's "born again" is a literal birth of a "son of God," a being not of biological origin, but a unique special creation.

Indeed:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

To be consistent, next you will tell us this is the resurrection. But John's theme is spiritual birth, and it is in this life.

WE must all become such a special creation to enter the realm of the Father.

They must indeed be changed, but they must be born spiritually from above in order to realize that change, and which is conversion, setting them in contrast to those who were not born of God:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (Romans 8:5)

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Galatians 4:29)

"The Nazis took Luther's advice, step by step." Or claimed to,

The Nazis implemented Luther's recommendations step by step. From the boycott of Jewish businesses (1933) to the Nuremberg Laws (1935) to Kristallnacht (1938) to the camps, to the final solution, they followed Luther's advice. Luther's own words would urge them on with a zeal and hatred straight from hell.

Kristallnacht (German pronunciation: [kʁɪsˈtalnaχt]; English: "Crystal Night"), also referred to as the Night of Broken Glass, or Reichskristallnacht [ˌʁaɪçs.kʁɪsˈtalnaχt], Pogromnacht [poˈɡʁoːmnaχt] ( listen), and Novemberpogrome [noˈvɛmbɐpoɡʁoːmə] ( listen), was a pogrom (a series of coordinated attacks) against Jews throughout Nazi Germany and Austria on 9–10 November 1938, carried out by SA paramilitary forces and non-Jewish civilians. German authorities looked on without intervening.[1] The name Kristallnacht comes from the shards of broken glass that littered the streets after Jewish-owned stores, buildings, and synagogues had their windows smashed.[2] At least 91 Jews were killed in the attacks, and 30,000 were arrested and incarcerated in concentration camps.[2] Jewish homes, hospitals, and schools were ransacked, as the attackers demolished buildings with sledgehammers.[3] Over 1,000 synagogues were burned (95 in Vienna alone) and over 7,000 Jewish businesses destroyed or damaged.[4][5] Martin Gilbert writes that no event in the history of German Jews between 1933 and 1945 was so widely reported as it was happening, and the accounts from the foreign journalists working in Germany sent shock waves around the world.[3] The Times wrote at the time: "No foreign propagandist bent upon blackening Germany before the world could outdo the tale of burnings and beatings, of blackguardly assaults on defenseless and innocent people, which disgraced that country yesterday."[6] The pretext for the attacks was the assassination of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath by Herschel Grynszpan, a German-born Polish Jew living in Paris. Kristallnacht was followed by additional economic and political persecution of Jews, and is viewed by historians as part of Nazi Germany's broader racial policy, and the beginning of the Final Solution and The Holocaust.[7]

SOME EXTRACTS FROM ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES, by Martin Luther, 1543

p284 My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now, but that we have now given them their due reward.

Second, that all their books - their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible - be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted. For they use all of these books to blaspheme the Son of God, that is, God the Father himself, Creator of heaven and earth, as was said above; and they will never use them differently.

Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our county. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. ...

Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it, because their blasphemous and accursed mouth and heart call God's Son Hebel Vorik, and thus also call his Father that. ....Therefore we must not consider the mouth of the Jews as worthy of uttering the name of God within our hearing. He who hears this name-from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away. And may no one be merciful and kind in this regard. for God's honor and the salvation of us all, including that of the Jews, are at stake!

p268 I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. ... Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God. Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor .....They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews...Let them stay at home...

p210 I will tell you. Their breath stinks with lust for the Gentiles' gold and silver; for no nation under the sun is greedier than they were, still are, and always will be, as is evident from their accursed usury. So they comfort themselves that when the Messiah comes he will take the gold and silver of the whole world and divide it among them. Therefore, wherever they can quote Scripture to satisfy their insatiable greed, they do so outrageously. One is led to believe that God and his prophets knew of nothing else to prophesy than of ways and means to satisfy the bottomless greed of the accursed Jews with the Gentiles' gold and silver.

p211 Shame on you, here, there, or wherever you may be, you damned Jews, that you dare to apply this earnest, glorious, comforting word of God so despicably to your mortal, greedy belly, which is doomed to decay, and that you are not ashamed to display your greed so openly. You are not worthy of looking at the outside of the Bible, much less of reading it. You should read only the bible that is found under the sow's tail, and eat and drink the letters that drop from there. That would be a bible for such prophets, who root about like sows and tear apart like pigs the words of the divine Majesty, which should be heard with all honor, awe, and joy.

p213 Therefore, wherever you see a genuine Jew, you may with a good conscience cross yourself and bluntly say: "There goes a devil incarnate."

p214 I say, before they would have us Gentiles - whom they incessantly mock, curse, damn, defame, and revile - share the Messiah with them, andd be called their co-heirs and brethren, they would crucify ten more Messiahs and kill God himself if this were possible, together with all angels and all creatures, even at the risk of incurring thereby the penalty of a thousand hells instead of one. Such an incomprehensibly stubborn pride dwells in the noble blood of the fathers and circumcised saints. They alone want to have the Messiah and be masters of the world.

p216 Quite apart from this, the Jews hear and see enough in us for which they ever blaspheme and curse the name of Jesus in their hearts; for they really are possessed. Therefore the history books often accuse them of contaminating wells, of kidnapping and piercing children, as for example at Trent, Weissensee, etc.

p240 And these dreary dregs, this stinking scum, this dried-up froth, this moldy leaven and boggy morass of Jewry should merit, on the strength of their repentance and righteousness, the empires of the whole world - that is, the Messiah and the fulfillment of the prophecies - though they possess none of the aforementioned items and are nothing but rotten, stinking, rejected dregs of their fathers' lineage!

p252 However, it is impossible to convert the devil and his own, nor are we commanded to attempt this.

p263 This gives you a clear picture of their conception of the fifth commandment and their observation of it. They have been blood thirsty bloodhounds and murderers of all Christendom for more than fourteen hundred years in their intentions, and would undoubtedly prefer to be such with their deeds. Thus they have been accused of poisoning water and wells, of kidnaping children, of piercing them through with an awl, of hacking them in pieces, and in that way secretly cooling their wrath with the blood of Christians, for all of which they have often been condemned to death by fire.

p266 There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses - namely, that God has struck them with "madness and blindness and confusion of mind." So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them.

>> "AnagennaoÌ„ denotes birth" <<

.

Only according to you!

All the experts, to the last one say it represents a regeneration.

That makes you a psuedo-christian scientist.

From Thayer:

While it seems you have expanded the research, I doubt a page titled Luther's wickedness - Protestant Antisemitism has any more validity than Wiki.

The Catholic Hitler and his ilk had innumerable examples of anti-Semitic literature to draw from, and blaming Luther's 500 year old TJATL as a the sole cause of their actions is pitiable. Far more likely is they learned their anti-Semitism initially following their church's leaders past actions, and then applied the typical search for a scapegoat following the ruin in the wake of WWII.

Once again, Luther had words, while the Papacy and the Nazis had the temporal power to act on their desires. Neither can blame Luther for their hatred of Jewry. But then, they don't have too, as long as they have anonymous internet posters to do it for them.

Ok...thanks.

However, the unity in the face of attacks from outsiders is important.

Also, specifically to Michael's case, he as an Anglican is attacked as being not sufficiently "P" enough

I won't "serve" one... -- but the pastor/priest is not to be served. He is one of the priesthood of believers, a ministerial priest among priests, just as the nation of Israel was a holy nation of priests yet with ministerial priests. You do not serve him, he serves God and ministers along with you.

Yes, it is a position that outwardly seems closer to God, but God calls us in different ways to serve

the church also tends to reflect the personality of its pastor, -- it should not. The Church's pastor is Jesus Christ. The ministers in front are ministers. They come and they go. Some are good at preaching, some at listening, some at ministering, some at meditation. We should not expect the pastor to be a superman and have all of these qualities in one person.

I suspected that. I’d guess a little SDA sprinkled in as well.

“If it looks like a Catholic, talks like a Catholic, Acts like a Catholic.”

That’s about the most ignorant thing you have said yet.

“God forbid YOU’D bother to change.”

That’s right, angry person, I am not going to forsake the Gospel on your account.

I wish you luck on your returning to the Church

What you listed, .45, is quite different from “choosing to be”. It is “co-operation” in the same sense that a drowning man needs to co-operate to be saved.

Yet arthurus was talking about groups that only define themselves as “not C”

What G Larry meant was the propensity of individuals to reformulate their own personal doctrine based on partially read excerpts — witness the unitarians (at the beginning, now they’re completely ga-ga)

Grow up.

Your own prejudice betrays you.

verga, you should also remember that while some are cynical, bear with it as they read the Bible they want to, coming up with theology like "Gap theory" that the world was created twice -- once in Genesis 1:1 and the second in the next few verses.