Good non sequitur here!
We DO know about the ability of the human mind to speculate about all SORTS of things.
Some do this and claim they are true...
"Is it possible..."
Posted on 05/26/2014 3:23:25 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
Controversial, yes, but true. Otherwise, we don’t believe in Church dogma or the reality of the sin of heresy.
Michael Voris makes some good points in this video. To the line “we don’t talk about religion and politics here,” he has added a third forbidden subject, sex. Regarding the older form of that yarn, Brother Francis once made an innocently humorous response to someone while he was out doing our work on the streets. A man said to him, “There are two things, we don’t talk about here!”
To which Brother responded, with a slightly feigned naïveté, “Really? What are those?”
“Religion and Politics!” responded the man.
And Brother said, “What’s wrong with politics?”
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicism.org ...
The point is not what you believe to be happening.
The discussion has been about the fact that Catholics pray TO saints asking them to do things FOR them.
Those prayers do exactly that. They are asking Mary to do something for the person. Not asking her to ask God. Asking her directly.
Scripture commands us to pray to God. Period.
There is not one instance given in Scripture where we are instructed to pray to anyone but God, the Father. The practice cannot be supported Scripturally. It’s a man-made construct that contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.
Note that he said this to them (not you, not me).
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
What difference does it make?
Ask Mr. Know-it-all. He has an answer for EVERYTHING!
That was FAST!!!
Let's try some easy math:
There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;
If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day;
that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.
Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)
...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!
Purty good fer someone NOT 'devine'!
1 Unscriptural
2 Unscritprual
3 Unscriptural and a sin because it’s idolatry and contacting the dead.
Jesus, when asked by His disciples to teach them to pray, started with *Our Father....*
There are many other places in Scripture where we are told to pray in Jesus name to the Father. The Father answers us for the sake of Christ.
Show me Scripture where we are instructed to pray to anyone but the Father.
Scripture also commands us to pray to one another - St Paul’s letters give many examples. You don’t know what the word prayer means.
When you get to reply #244; could you comment on it's contents?
HMMMmmm...
God gave Peter the power to heal, why could he not give Mary the power to hear the prayers of many people. Do we fully understand the concept of time and space in Heaven?
Jesus, when asked by His disciples to teach them to pray, started with *Our Father....*
There are many other places in Scripture where we are told to pray in Jesus name to the Father. The Father answers us for the sake of Christ.
Show me Scripture where we are instructed to pray to anyone but the Father.
For the first two, if you hold it is unscriptural, why is it not sin ? That does seem to be your standard. Preachers deviate from the Scriptural model of "Our Father" all the time; you probably do too.
As to your question, I have shown you already but you did not believe, so for you it is sin. As for idolatry, if you believe in or worship some other god using a graven image it is sin. If you love the brethren and ask them to pray to God for you, it is neither idolatry nor sin. If you don't believe they are with the LORD, then for you it may be sin. There are many things that are not in the Scriptures.
I don't pray the Our Father.
I don't see it as a canned prayer that if it's prayed, it's prayed like an incantation, and then I will get what I want for every so many *Our Father's*.
I see it as a template or basis, a model to be used on which to personalize your prayers to God.
I haven't considered yet as to whether praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit is actually a sin or not. I don't recall finding any Scriptural support for it, so on that basis I would consider it unscritpural. Whether it's a sin to address Jesus or the Holy Spirit is something I've just not given a lot of thought to.
Thank you for being honest. It seems you will allow those of the holy catholic apostolic faith some liberty in their prayers after all. Is it okay to look at the actual words of the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus as a template or basis, a model to be used on which to personalize our faith and worship ? Can one safely re-form the original into something new ?
I see only good in the Avinu/Our Father, Shema, V'Ahavta, Kaddish, and Modeh Ani prayers. The Hail Mary is almost entirely scripture itself.
I am reminded of these scriptures as a principle that would apply to prayer practice.
Good non sequitur here!
We DO know about the ability of the human mind to speculate about all SORTS of things.
Some do this and claim they are true...
"Is it possible..."
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
or Psalm 119 Aleph to Tau, the whole of which is as a prayer, but especially this
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
I don't care what people say when the pray. I don't allow or disallow anything from others.
When my kids were little, I told them what they could or could not do. I don't tell others.
But if something violates Scripture, I will point that out. The words one uses when praying have wide latitude. Scripture records many prayers prayed by many people.
However it is clear, and taught by Jesus Himself, WHO it is we are to pray to and that is the Father. There is no exception made anywhere in Scripture to pray to anyone else and I will continue to point that out when others say that it is alright to pray to dead people and ask them for things. And they can rationalize it away all they want, but they are in direct disobedience to the clear instruction of Jesus Himself.
The Hail Mary is almost entirely scripture itself.
Stringing together a bunch of cherry picked phrases picked out from verses in the Bible to make up something, does not make it Scriptural.
I daresay a lot of the words in the English language can be found in Scripture so that anyone could claim that anything that is said if *Scriptural*.
No. Because fact is fact.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No man can come to the Father but through Him.
There is no re-forming it into something new.
Memorizing and meditating on Scripture is not the same as reciting canned prayers.
A prayer written by men does not carry the weight of authority or inspiration as God breathed Scripture.
It is disappointing that you are making an argument that assumes God is not omnipotent. You can find out more about the heresy that you may or may not (trying to be charitable) be advocating at the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
You are promoting your church more than you are promoting Christ. You are needlessly divisive. You are the enemy.
NKP_Vet — I look forward to the day that you are banned from FR for your nastiness. From all appearances, you are not redeemable.
The Our Father was written by a man and is God breathed Scripture. There is nothing wrong with it. There is everything right with it. Memorize it, meditate on it, and make it your prayer without ceasing.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
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