Posted on 05/07/2014 8:26:24 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
The dramatic recent collapse of the Arab-Israeli peace talks and the ongoing political turmoil involving the Temple Mount have again focused world attention on the centuries-old struggle for that sacred site. Since antiquity, the roughly 37 acres of the Temple Mount and its immediate surroundings have frequently been the focus of interreligious strife.
The destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in A.D. 70 was a devastating event in the history of Judaism. It served as a transforming catalyst in both the origins of Christianity and the transition of Israelite religion from a priestly sacrifice-centered system to the legalistic text-centered religion of rabbinic Judaism as we know it today. Ever since that catastrophic year, many Jews have longed for the restoration of their lost temple.
During the centuries after its destruction, Jews made three major attempts to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem. The first was the messianic movement of Shimon Bar Kokhba from A.D. 132-135. His efforts were cut short by the overwhelming victory of the Roman emperor Hadrian, who altogether expelled the Jews from Jerusalem and built a temple to Jupiter on the site of the ancient house of the Lord....
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
You probably don't know how right you are. Christianity has been "taken over" by Judaizers, pretending to the Christians.
>>>the Jews did not recognize their messiah, because he did not fit their pre-existing expectations.<<<
Exactly. They also will not recognize him now (since he never changes,) nor will those "Christians" who think like the Jews of old.
>>>Jesus was a JEW, so Christians have made him into someone else. They also no longer know their messiah.<<<
No. Christians know that Jesus is the Lord; and that He was "hanging around" long before the Jews arrived on the scene. Christians know that He created all things. No Christian believes otherwise.
>>>the "New Testament" is only commentary on the Torah. the Torah is the most important. Jesus said, if you dont believe Moses, you will not believe me.<<<
And Moses said, if you don't believe Jesus, you will be destroyed (Deu 18:18-19; Acts 3:22-23.) The Torah was replaced by the New Covenant (the New Testament,) which was created by the blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 9:12-28.)
Philip
Sir, let’s stick to the issue regarding the voluminous quotations you’ve made in reference to the Jews you’ve quoted from the New Testament.
Let me say it again for the last time.
They are meaningless within the context and perspective
of Jewish belief, ideology and philosophy and the very destiny of the Jewish people in which God has decreed for his chosen people in their ultimate salvation.
Jews are God's people—period.
Deuteronomy 14:2
Psalms 105:8-15
2 Samuel 7:23-24
1 Kings 10:9
Note the word “FOREVER” is used over and over—folks can throw semantics out all they want, but there is no getting around this truth.
Romans 11:25 is prophecy still morphing and hasn't completely been fulfilled (probably a lot closer than most people realize).
The next war in the Middle East is going to prove a doozy for Israel. Isaiah 17 could easily be fulfilled with the Psalm 83 war, and this will be shortly followed by Ezekiel 38-39.
We can disagree on when Daniel 12 & Matthew 24 will occur. That point is moot now.
You said this:
My quote: <<<Michael is the designated Protector of Israel, he always has been and always will be (even now).<<<
“Please cite scriptural references for your claims.”
Read Daniel 12:1 again and hopefully you’ll see it this time.
What part of “will no longer be a city” is difficult to understand for you?
The A/D is one and the same (Daniel 12 and Matthew 24). Note the tense He uses, “When you see”.
Why in the world would God in the Flesh give advice to people for something that had already happened centuries before?
when did Jesus stop being a Jew?
Jesus was a Jew. He had nothing to do with the monstrous greek edifice built by gentiles afterwards.
the way Jews perceive their “destiny” is irrelevant to the reality of their situation, which is the same as every other human being ( read: sinner )
unless you believe Jesus is the Messiah, sent from the Father, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN. ( John 8:22-30 )
Whether one accepts this or not doesn’t make it any less factual, just as if I don’t believe in gravity makes it any less factual.
in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. the flesh means nothing, the spirit is all that matters.
the true Jew is one inwardly, who is in Christ and therefore an heir to the promises made to Abraham.
anyone who rejects Christ, rejects the Father who sent him and therefore is still an enemy of God. it doesn’t matter if such a person is irish, german, greek, African, arab or jewish.
God hasn’t washed his hands of the Jews, but........the Jews are no different than the irish, Africans, Chinese, swedes or Russians. unless ANYONE believes Jesus is the Messiah, sent from the Father, THEY WILL DIE IN THEIR SINS.
PEROID.
You’ve got no argument from me on that point Brother.
Are you kidding? The way Jews "perceive" their destiny.. We're not playing word games here. We're talking about the ultimate, divine truth. Other than yourself no one has interjected the word "perceive" as some sort of delusional state of mind open to interpretation (by others, like yourself.)
Perceive
1.become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.
2. interpret or look on (someone or something) in a particular way; regard as.
You're free to define words in any way you desire, based on what you believe, want the result to be. But you're in absolutely no position to define the sense of steadfast faith, belief, of any group as if it were some parlor game.
Their unshakeable belief, faith in The God of Abraham, Isaac Jacob,is not any "perception" in the manner in which you so callously throw out but one that is resolute, indefatigable, unshakable, irrefutable.
...unless you believe Jesus is the Messiah, sent from the Father, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN.....
That is your prerogative to believe and espouse as you feel in your righteous indignation but is not necessarily universal by any mean in terms of humanity in a collective manner.
You are being extraordinarily presumptuous, misguided to make that statement regarding anyone but yourself.
...There is no universal consensus regarding what you espouse that unless you believe Jesus is the Messiah, sent from the Father, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN.....
Whether what you believe in is true or not does not change its factual complexion.
Gravity is not an area, subject in which one believes in or not, so your analogy has no bearing on your argument.
I would not venture to go as far as to make judgment, to question someone in their belief based on whatever beliefs apply to myself. I have a messiah complex of my own, I want to save the world but I always say first let me save myself before going out and trying to save the world or at least some.
post #50 speaks of the “jewish perspective”, which is to say the jewish understanding.....perceive means to understand as the definition posted indicates.
may I suggest reading John 8? I am sure you can find it online since it is in the Christian NT. Jesus was speaking to the unbelieving Jews in his day and shows clearly that if they had the faith that Abraham had, they would have believed in Him. Please read it. No mere man could ever say “truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM”
I will read it and provide my thoughts on it. Thank you for your courtesy and consideration.
As far as the word “perceive” is concerned, my perception of the way you utilized it seemed to devalue their belief as that of being less of a reality (in their minds).
Okay, I read it (for the umpteenth time.) Where does it say Michael is now, and will always be, the Protector of Israel?
Philip
Does that mean you are not responding to me, again? Or, am I suppose to slink away into a closet? What do you mean by that?
>>>They are meaningless within the context and perspective of Jewish belief, ideology and philosophy and the very destiny of the Jewish people in which God has decreed for his chosen people in their ultimate salvation.<<<
First, let's be clear that the Jews as a group have not been God's chosen people for about 2000 years. Nor will they ever be again. If individual Jews want to be a part of God's people--and become descendants of Abraham--they must call on the name of the Lord, like many of the early Christians did. Like I did.
The chosen people were the small remnant that the Lord called, such as Paul, Peter, James, John, …, the elect of Israel. They became the apostles and earliest Christians. You can read about the destiny of the elect, and those that called on the name of the Lord, in Joel:
"And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion and in Jerusalem shall the saved one be as the Lord has said, and they that have glad tidings preached to them, whom the Lord has called." (Joel 2:32 Septuagint)
Isaiah spoke of the elect in this manner:
"Jacob is my servant, I will help him: Israel is my chosen, my soul has accepted him; I have put my Spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor shall his voice be heard without. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench; but he shall bring forth judgment to truth. He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgment on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Isa 42:1-4 Septuagint)
Do you know anyone like that?
Also, what we post works both ways. "Jewish" belief is meaningless to salvation. When I see anti-Christian doctrine, such as "Jewish' belief, on this forum, I will respond.
>>>Sir, let’s stick to the issue regarding the voluminous quotations you’ve made in reference to the Jews you’ve quoted from the New Testament.<<<
I believe my posts also included a warning from Moses. But since you obviously do not respect new covenant interpretations, this is the same warning from the old testament version commonly in use in the early first century:
"I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him " (Deu 18:18-19 Septuagint)
Over one million were slaughtered in Jerusalem, alone. There were also these warnings from Moses:
"And all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and shall overtake thee, until he shall have consumed thee, and until he shall have destroyed thee; because thou didst not hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commands, and his ordinances which he has commanded thee. And these things shall be signs in thee, and wonders among thy seed for ever; because thou didst not serve the Lord thy God with gladness and a good heart, because of the abundance of all things." (Deu 28:45-47 Septuagint)
"For I know thy provocation, and thy stiff neck; for yet during my life with you at this day, ye have been provoking in your conduct toward God: how shall ye not also be so after my death? Gather together to me the heads of your tribes, and your elders, and your judges, and your officers, that I may speak in their ears all these words; and I call both heaven and earth to witness against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly transgress, and turn aside out of the way which I have commanded you; and evils shall come upon you in the latter days, because ye will do evil before the Lord, to provoke him to anger by the works of your hands." (Deu 31:27-29 Septuagint)
They just do not get it. Too bad Israel did not listen to Moses. When Israel was not killing the prophets, they were ignoring them. How long did they think God would put up with that arrogance?
Philip
Check out Adam Clarke's commentaries. Actually, most any commentary except for the misleading "Scofield's Reference Notes." This prophecy was fulfilled about 730 BC, and it was relating to the kingdom of Damascus (Syria,) which was in an alliance with Ephraim (the kingdom of Samaria) against Judah. But if you insist on taking the verse literally, where is Aroer?
This is from the Orthodox Jewish Bible:
"The massa (burden) of Damascus. Hinei, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a heap of ruins. The cities of Aroer are deserted; they shall be for adarim (flocks), which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. The fortified city also shall cease from Ephrayim, and the mamlechah from Damascus, and the remnant of Aram (Syria); they shall be like the kavod Bnei Yisroel, saith Hashem Tzva’os." ([Isaiah] Yeshayah 17:1-3 OJB)
The Hebrew translation for "is taken away" can be literal or figurative; and is not definite. The King James reads similar to the OJB:
"The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." (Isaiah 17:1 KJV)
If you insist that everything in the Old Testament be taken literally, you have to contend with a multitude of translations of the original Hebrew; as well as a multitude of OT passages that contradict dispensationalism. For example you have to contend with passages like Ezekiel 48:1:2, which gives a land grant to the tribe of Dan. And there are these verses:
"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them." (Eze 37:24 KJV)
"But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." (Jer 30:9 KJV)
"Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd." (Eze 34:22-23 KJV)
So, who will rule during the so-called "thousand year reign:" David or Christ?
Philip
You are completely wrong in the first sentence; but your second sentence is revealing. Since you claim to be a literalist, and you insist on the proper tense in Matt 24:15, how do you interpret Matt 24:34?
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)
How about these statements Jesus made to his disciples. How do you interpret them?
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)
>>>Why in the world would God in the Flesh give advice to people for something that had already happened centuries before?<<<
He was warning them that when they saw the holy land occupied by pagan armies, as occurred in Daniel 12 under Antiochus IV, then they should flee. How would they possibly know what Jesus was referring to, if there was no fulfilled prophecy that explained the abomination of desolation?
Compare these same sequences from Matthew, Mark and Luke, and it will be clearer:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (Mat 24:15-16 KJV)
"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" (Mark 13:14 KJV)
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto." (Luke 21:20-21 KJV)
Philip
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