Posted on 05/03/2014 7:07:17 AM PDT by GonzoII
Nothing like as good ol’ A vs C fight to take the heat off them pesky Catholics!
***Their similarities relate to their intolerance of any religious views other than their own.***
Which ironically exactly is what your source does. Interestingly the source you have choosen to try and prove your point.
Rather than just saying Spurgeon was wrong, maybe you should point out the errors in his logic; if you can? Problem for you is; you can’t.
I didn't just say Spurgeon is "wrong," I explained why I disagreed, though I did not cite the Jewish examples at the time (though I will), and it would probably be better if you explained where you agree with him, since, as I said, Spurgeon is a Calvinist, even if his understanding of reprobation is off. The only place I really find myself disagreeing with him, on the other hand, is his dismissal of older Calvinist commentary, as I mentioned, for example, right here:
" You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth."
He is referring to 1 Ti 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" and other verses like it, which seem to say something very similar. And he rejects the idea that Paul here is speaking of classes of men, as the "older Calvinist" commentaries tend to argue, as the previous verses are a call to prayer for "Kings, and all those in authority," which many tend to interpret as leading one to believe that "all men" here means "all kinds of men." But this is not a Calvinist invention, and is older than Augustine, and is actually a mode of speech even employed by the Jews.
One must be aware of the unique peculiarities Jews make use of in their language. For example, from Gill’s commentary, commenting on the Jewish use of the words “all the world, the world, the whole world, all the men of the world,” etc, Gill begins by quoting Jewish examples where the word is used in radically different ways from how we would use it today:
“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles, “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),
‘it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’(n)
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,
“amle ylwk, “the “whole world” has left the Misna, and gone after the “Gemara”;’’
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),
“amle ylwk, “the whole world” fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;’’
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when
“R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), “the whole world” stood up before him;’’
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),
“when a great man makes a mourning, “the whole world” come to honour him;’’
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, “the whole world” is not divided, or does not dissent (s); “the whole world” are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, “all the men of the world” (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, “all the world”, or “the whole world”, in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world”
(From Gill’s Commentary on 1 John 2:2, quoting from (l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.)
Scriptural examples of this include:
Luk 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
By this Luke means, not the whole habitable world, as much of it was still undiscovered, and not even the whole known world, which even in those days was not all under the power of the Roman empire, but just the Roman empire itself, or perhaps Israel.
Another one, which Gill mentioned:
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Obviously we are no longer under the power of Satan, but have been released from his clutches by the power of Jesus Christ.
Another:
Luk 11:42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”
Some translations render this “all manner of herb,” but, literally, it is “every herb,” which, obviously, the meaning is only every kind of herb.
This is the argument Augustine uses in his explanation of the verse 1 Ti 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved”, the fellow apparently channeling the yet unborn "Old Calvinists":
“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)
Another example:
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Rom 3:10-11)
Obviously this cannot mean that no one seeks or understands, as, obviously, all Christians seek and understand (though maybe not perfectly). But, Paul’s meaning is more general,r referring to the depraved world, or of all Christians prior to Christ saving them, who, before that time, are incapable of seeing, believing or understanding until the Holy Spirit moves on them.
Another example, Christ distinguishing between the world and those given to Him out of the world:
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Thus the world does not mean everyone in the world, but all those not given to Him.
Finally, more direct examples, by comparing seemingly contradictory verses with their parallels:
1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Thus the meaning is, Christ is the atonement for all the sins of the children of God scattered abroad, of every nation and tribe.
Thus, to repeat myself, but after having given more detail, I disagree with Spurgeon on this point because he falsely assumes that this mode of reading texts like this is merely an invention of "Old Calvinists." As a matter of fact, it's as old as the Jews.
Hey, GameCOCK, you didn’t read what I said. GOOGLE is you FRiend, even if you don’t consider me so. I selected one source. There are many others. Get off it...
“I don’t care about the Arminian view and how they’d read it, or the Papist view, or the Mormon view of these verses. I just want a plain reading of the text.”
So do I. But when one talks about 2-3 verses, then one’s overall understanding of scripture gets involved. In your case, you bring a Calvinist view to those verses, and read predestination into verses that make no mention of it.
“What we are debating, however, is the cause of belief. Please re-read my previous post and properly respond to me.”
We are debating if God gives life to men he preselected with no regard to faith, and after saving them gives them faith, or if faith is a condition God imposes on ALL. WHOSOEVER supports MY view, but makes a mess of yours.
Also, I loath your snarky replies. Either learn to reply like a polite person, or we are finished. Your failure to understand is not moral superiority on your point. I have explained my reasons, and given links that go into much greater depth. In return, you offer attitude but no discussion.
“Me: Neither does it say anywhere in John 6 that those are people who won God’s Life Lottery,
You: Ignoring your mockery, you know as well as I do that it most certainly does, and I have repeatedly asked you to address my points.”
Asserting you are right is not reason. It is vain boasting. Nothing in John 6 says those given to Christ are from a list of elect that God drew up with no reference to their believing, since he would give them faith after giving them life. The point of Calvin is that our response in faith to God does not come from us, but is given to us by God because he already chose to save us. But that is not found anywhere in scripture, and certainly not in John 6. Instead, John wrote:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Everyone who looks and believes. Calvin inserts God’s “secret will”: that only those on God’s List of Names will be allowed to look and believe. It turns God into a liar, who would lose in court if anyone took him up on his contract offer.
We KNOW who will be given to Jesus: “everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him”.
“You stated earlier that my view is not in these verses, but then you confess my view is in these verses”
Again, no. What I said is that the verses can be treated either way, by themselves. But in context, with the 500 verses about faith and believinn found in the NT alone, then there IS only one consistent way to treat them. In deed, if one reads ALL the verses in John 6 instead of cherry picking, the same conclusion is reached - UNLESS you resort to Calvin’s “hidden will of God” - the will he supposedly has, but doesn’t mention in scripture.
“This doesn’t actually respond to the text, again, regarding the God who “works all things according to the counsel of His will.”
Actually, it does. If the sovereign will of God is to give us choice, then who are you to deny Him? Who is Calvin to order God to not do what God has said He will do? If God decides to do Plan A, who are you or Calvin to say, “No God, you must do it my way!”?
It is bewildering that people want to limit God to deciding I will sin on a given day at a given hour. The Calvinist who told me God made me sin was at least consistent with his view of God, if not with the Bible.
As far back as Genesis 4 we read, “The Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
God knew what Cain would do, but He did not need to compel him to do so. When I was stationed in the Philippines, I always knew the outcome of the Super Bowl before we could watch it on TV. When watching it, I knew what would happen, but I did not force it to happen that way. God knows what we will do. When He chooses, He intervenes and makes us do something. But when He chooses, He allows us to make meaningful choices. Thus He commands us to “Repent and believe”, and He knows if we will, but He does not force us to do either - because it is His sovereign will to allow us to do so.
“What about those who have never heard?”
That answer is found in Romans 1 & 2.
1: “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”
2: “12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
Not at all, and I can't help but to notice that you consistently refuse to defend any of your assertions. If we understand "whosoever" as declaring universal ability, we contradict the verses in John which declare this ability to be limited to those whom God gives it to, and whom Paul later writes cannot confess Christ "but by the Holy Ghost." Therefore, if you want to bring the "whole of scripture" into things, you are forced to limit "whosoever" to only those whom the Holy Spirit, at some point in time, is working His influence on. You cannot, however, argue for free-will or universal ability.
The promise of Christ is not a vain one, but a true one, and those who refuse Christ have only themselves to blame. Hence why the Apostle describes the Gospel as "the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life" (2 Co 2:16).
This line of argument you offer is only a red herring. It does not remove the problem at hand: the origin of faith.
I have explained my reasons, and given links that go into much greater depth.
If you have any that go into any kind of depth at all on any of my objections, I would be pleased to see them. But, I do not click on links because I consider it intellectual and spiritual laziness, as I said, so you must provide the passage in question and swear that you will defend them when I tear them to pieces.
Again, no.
At this point you're literally just repeating what you wrote in the last post, and doing it even as you describe "assertions" as "vain boasting." I think you are too blinded to seriously engage me, and that is why I swore my oath: never to be taken on a ride by the red herrings of sophists. I shall be bold, bloody and resolute, demanding accountability from my opponents. You taught me that. Twas not any of the Papists.
Who is Calvin to order God to not do what God has said He will do? If God decides to do Plan A, who are you or Calvin to say, “No God, you must do it my way!”?
But this is the position of the Arminians, who consistently accuse Calvin, Luther, the reformers, Augustine, and on and on, of teaching an "unfair" Gospel that teaches that God "does what He pleases in heaven and in Earth." Not one of our party has ever uttered the phrase "God must save us in a way that is fair!" This is the war cry of the Arminians, and, before them, the Papists. The Arminians are those who plead on the "willing," the Papists on the "running," but we say that God saves by His mercy only. This is where we stand today. Soli Deo gloria!
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
God knew what Cain would do, but He did not need to compel him to do so.
That is most certainly true, and at no time is anyone compelled. But God would not have allowed him to sin, had it not been his will, and whoever says that God cannot change the will of a man to that which is good at any time denies His omnipotence; and God would not have allowed his sin to succeed in the murder of Abel, if this was not in His will. The idea that God was powerless to save Abel, or foresaw it and refused to do anything about it, or that anything occurs against God's will, is certainly a terrifying proposition, as we lose our assurance in God's power to protect us and to guide us in our lives, and we can no longer hope that "all things work unto good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom 8).
The scripture stands secure, and we rest easy, knowing that His providential control over the world is exactly what the scripture says it is: Absolute, over all matters of life and death.
“If we understand “whosoever” as declaring universal ability, we contradict the verses in John which declare this ability to be limited to those whom God gives it to, and whom Paul later writes cannot confess Christ “but by the Holy Ghost.”
Not hardly. Whosoever does refer to everyone that God has taken the initiative to reveal Himself to, which to some degree means EVERYONE. But not all will believe. Not because God doesn’t allow them to believe, but because
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
John never says that God has a secret will to only save a handful of names apart from their belief. John doesn’t say it, but you read it into his words because you ASSUME that meaning, based on your Calvinist beliefs.
“It does not remove the problem at hand: the origin of faith.”
On the contrary, faith is what we have when we believe God, following God’s revelation to us. That is by definition. Faith, by definition means: “confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.”
By definition, faith is something one does, not something one receives.
“But, I do not click on links because I consider it intellectual and spiritual laziness, as I said...”
That is OK. I consider it intellectual laziness to want someone to hand type long arguments for you instead of going to a link and reading. If you prefer not to know, then I cannot help you.
“Not one of our party has ever uttered the phrase “God must save us in a way that is fair!”
No Arminian makes that argument. We merely point out what GOD has said is the plan of salvation:
“The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son.”
No mention of a secret drawing of names, with irresistible grace to some and irresistible damnation to others. I’m sorry God’s plan of salvation doesn’t match Calvin’s, but it is God’s choice to make, not Calvin’s.
Mat 21:32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.
Mat 21:22 “And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Mar 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible for one who believes.”
Mar 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mar 11:23 “Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Jhn 11:26 “and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”...
Jhn 11:40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”
Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
You choose the website.
Company you keep and all.
Yup.
Where is their opportunity? Or did they not get to hear the Gospel for a reason?
“Where is their opportunity? Or did they not get to hear the Gospel for a reason?”
God is just. He reveals Himself to all to some degree, as Paul wrote. He reveals Himself more explicitly to some than to others, and doesn’t tell us why. But I suspect the parable of the talents may apply. The summary is: “For the man who has something will have more given to him and will have plenty. But as for the man who has nothing, even his ‘nothing’ will be taken away.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2025&version=PHILLIPS
But no, I do not know everything and God hasn’t seen fit to give me any extra insight. I am content to know that God will be just. How that will play out? I’ll have to wait and see.
Then we return full circle to the verses you have yet to even analyze in any way. That is, when Christ explains the unbelief of the Jews, He does so by explaining that the reason why they do not believe is because it was not granted to them to believe. "That is why I told you," saith He, "no one can come to me unless my Father grants it." If it had been "granted" them to believe, it is a contradiction to explain the reason for their unbelief as it not having been granted.
That is OK. I consider it intellectual laziness to want someone to hand type long arguments for you instead of going to a link and reading.
So not only are you incapable of scriptural exegesis for inconvenient verses, you do not know how to use copy and paste? But I know what Arminians say about the verses I have brought against you: Nothing, or, at least, nothing substantial, and that is why you will not post any relevant passages that might answer my points to you. There's simply nothing to post. I have read Biblical commentaries by Arminians, scriptural arguments from Arminians, and when it comes to verses like what we find in John 6, there is a sudden and mysterious lack of depth and detail in their commentaries. Barnes, for example, does not even have an entry for verse 65! This compared to ancients like Augustine who, reading it, has no problem concluding after entire pages on this chapter carefully analyzing each verse, "there is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err" (Augustine, Tractate 26). This is the only legitimate response one can have.
If you are suggesting that there will be salvation outside of Jesus Christ for those who have never heard the Gospel, you would be horribly wrong.
As the scripture says, all men are guilty before God, regardless of how much “light” they have received (Rom 3:19). As all men have received, to a certain extent, the law of God imprinted on their hearts, as well as the light of nature revealing the existence of God, therefore they are summarily rendered “without excuse,” (Rom 1:20, 2:14) and “as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law” (Rom 2:12). And again, “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God”(Rom 3:9-11). And again, all those who do not know God have no hope, and lack God in the world (Eph 2:12). This light, therefore, brings them condemnation, it is not a "degree of light" that could potentially save them.
And finally, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me,” and, to “come” is to believe: “But there are some of you who do not believe... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (Joh 6:37, 64-65), thus it cannot be claimed that there are those who are saved who exist amongst horrid cults or false religions who deny the Father and the Son, since all those whom the Father gives to the Son do not stand idle, but come rushing into the arms of the savior according to His plan and promise.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
If any man is in the world who never heard the Gospel, it was by the infallible power of God, and not by random chance, that he was left so abandoned. And, therefore, it was one of those whom God chose not to have mercy on, in accordance with His almighty sovereignty (Rom 9:18-21).
A denial of salvation in Christ alone is a horrid doctrine, and must be smashed by all the force of scripture.
“There’s simply nothing to post. I have read Biblical commentaries by Arminians, scriptural arguments from Arminians, and when it comes to verses like what we find in John 6, there is a sudden and mysterious lack of depth and detail in their commentaries.”
Given your refusal to read what I have provided or the links, I am skeptical of your claim.
As for John 6, you continue to read Calvinism in to verses that say nothing of the sort, so I must conclude that careful reading of the scripture isn’t your strong point either. The text does not say what you want it to say, and specifically says something else:
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
We are saved by grace thru faith, and gain entrance to grace thru faith, as scripture says - not via election or a secret will of God.
“If you are suggesting that there will be salvation outside of Jesus Christ for those who have never heard the Gospel, you would be horribly wrong.”
What I have said is that God is just, and I am content to leave it there. If you consider that wrong, then I suggest you reconsider.
“So Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. Nobody comes to me unless he is drawn to me by the Father who sent me, and I will raise him up when the last day comes. In the prophets it is written—‘And they shall all be taught by God,’ and this means that everybody who has heard the Father’s voice and learned from him will come to me...I assure you that the man who trusts in him has eternal life already.”
Who comes to God? “everybody who has heard the Father’s voice and learned from him” - which is simply a rephrasing of what I said.
“There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.
What is rather ironic in all of this discussion is that the above definition coincides beautifully with the Wesleyan-Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace — a doctrine that R.C. Sproul denies that the Bible teaches (pp. 123-125). Wesleyan-Arminians believe that divine grace works in the hearts and wills of every person to elicit a faith response or as Thomas Oden states so well, “God’s love enables precisely that response in the sinner which God’s holiness demands: trust in God’s own self-giving” (“The Transforming Power of Grace,” p. 45).”
http://evangelicalarminians.org/does-john-6-44-teach-irresistible-grace/
“The disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians would be over the meaning of the word draw in John 6:44; whether this divine drawing or assistance is irresistible or resistible, and whether it extends to all people as John 12:32 suggests, or just to some people. We need to keep in mind that there is a huge difference between being irresistibly compelled or forced to believe in Christ and being graciously enabled to believe...
...I have surveyed every available Lexicon, Exegetical Dictionary, and Greek-English Dictionary, that I could find in bookstores, Seminaries, and College libraries available to me. Here is a sampling of the evidence:
• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, says helkuo is used figuratively “of the pull on man’s inner life. . . . draw, attract J 6:44” [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, p. 251].
• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].
• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament has, “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie, p. 13].
• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller says, “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)” [p. 144].
• Calvinist Spiros Zodhiates, in his Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, says, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids, p. 1831].
I could cite at least eight more reference works but it is unnecessary because not a single one of them defines draw in John 6:44 as “compel or force.” Clearly, R.C. Sproul has not done his homework.”
http://wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/the-arminian-magazine/issue-1-spring-2001-volume-19
“form of the verb heko is in the future, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular form and indicates that someone/something will come. Again, a brief examination of our lexicons offers no surprises. Those who are being given to the Son will come to Him, that is, to be present with him. What we need to be cautious in doing with a word like this is not to freight it with our desired meaning or read theological implications into it. In the majority usage within the NT, the usage of heko (and its forms) is to simply come, to be present. To draw out a theological meaning takes more than a single word, verse, or sometimes even a passage.”
http://evangelicalarminians.org/the-honest-reading-canard-john-6-37-40/
Before we begin, remember what I wrote before, which you ignored:
"Further, you state that "those the Father gives" are those who already believe. IOW, they believe, and therefore God gives them to the Son. Where is your evidence for this assertion? It is presupposed, but it is not sourced in the text. The Father is the first cause of the giving in these verses, and the direct cause for unbelief in the other verse referenced, and to "come" is tied with believing. Hence Christ states that there are those who do not believe, and then immediately explains, 'That is why I told you, no man can come to me unless it is given to Him by the Father.' Thus to "come" to Christ is another way of saying "to believe" in Christ, and all those whom the Father gives to the Son, therefore, believe in Christ, and this infallibly, with none of them being lost."
Thus, when Christ says that all those whom the Father gives come to Him, and all those who hear the voice of the Father come to Him, and all those who the Father draws are "risen up," He is speaking all of the same thing. And all of this has the same originator: The active decision of God, which, when decided upon for someone, goes forth and works infallibly, without any being lost. Compare again: Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Now note with these verses:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.it is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (Joh 6:44-46)
And some more:
Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:64-65)
These verses are not compatible with any idea of God universally "granting" or "giving" or "drawing" all men, as those unbelievers, surely, would have then received it from the Father to believe, but rejected it, especially since some of them may have even been believers for a time before shocked into confusion over Christ's spiritual "eating."
What I have said is that God is just, and I am content to leave it there. If you consider that wrong, then I suggest you reconsider.
Reconsider what? Do you believe, yes or no, that these people may be saved having never heard of Jesus Christ? And what do you define as "just"? Is it that God is obligated to show mercy to all people?
Who comes to God? “everybody who has heard the Father’s voice and learned from him” - which is simply a rephrasing of what I said. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44).
Before we begin, remember what I wrote before, which you ignored:
"Further, you state that "those the Father gives" are those who already believe. IOW, they believe, and therefore God gives them to the Son. Where is your evidence for this assertion? It is presupposed, but it is not sourced in the text. The Father is the first cause of the giving in these verses, and the direct cause for unbelief in the other verse referenced, and to "come" is tied with believing. Hence Christ states that there are those who do not believe, and then immediately explains, 'That is why I told you, no man can come to me unless it is given to Him by the Father.' Thus to "come" to Christ is another way of saying "to believe" in Christ, and all those whom the Father gives to the Son, therefore, believe in Christ, and this infallibly, with none of them being lost."
Thus, when Christ says that all those whom the Father gives come to Him, and all those who hear the voice of the Father come to Him, and all those who the Father draws are "risen up," He is speaking all of the same thing. And all of this has the same originator: The active decision of God, which, when decided upon for someone, goes forth and works infallibly, without any being lost. Compare again: Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Now note with these verses:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.it is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (Joh 6:44-46)
And some more:
Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:64-65)
These verses are not compatible with any idea of God universally "granting" or "giving" or "drawing" all men, as those unbelievers, surely, would have then received it from the Father to believe, but rejected it, especially since some of them may have even been believers for a time before shocked into confusion over Christ's spiritual "eating."
What I have said is that God is just, and I am content to leave it there. If you consider that wrong, then I suggest you reconsider.
Reconsider what? Do you believe, yes or no, that these people may be saved having never heard of Jesus Christ? And what do you define as "just"? Is it that God is obligated to show mercy to all people?
Once last thing, this is, again, pointing to the red herring pointed at earlier. If one is "drawn", or 'granted," or, if one who hears the voice of the Father then "comes," we can believe quite well that they do come, and all those who do come Christ "in no wise casts out."
We are, again, back into these same verses which you will not deal with in any substantive way. And they are these:
But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:64-65)
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
If we believe that those who hear of the Father "come," then we must known that they believe, as Christ will not cast them out. If we believe that a person has heard the voice of God, then we must believe that they will "come." And if a person is said to not believe, then He has neither heard the voice of God, and therefore has not come, and cannot, unless it is "granted" Him.
Ignorance (or flat out DENIAL) of these verses in Romans is what creates just about every cult there is!
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