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To: Mr Rogers; metmom; Elsie; .45 Long Colt
WHOSOEVER supports MY view, but makes a mess of yours.

Not at all, and I can't help but to notice that you consistently refuse to defend any of your assertions. If we understand "whosoever" as declaring universal ability, we contradict the verses in John which declare this ability to be limited to those whom God gives it to, and whom Paul later writes cannot confess Christ "but by the Holy Ghost." Therefore, if you want to bring the "whole of scripture" into things, you are forced to limit "whosoever" to only those whom the Holy Spirit, at some point in time, is working His influence on. You cannot, however, argue for free-will or universal ability.

The promise of Christ is not a vain one, but a true one, and those who refuse Christ have only themselves to blame. Hence why the Apostle describes the Gospel as "the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life" (2 Co 2:16).

This line of argument you offer is only a red herring. It does not remove the problem at hand: the origin of faith.

I have explained my reasons, and given links that go into much greater depth.

If you have any that go into any kind of depth at all on any of my objections, I would be pleased to see them. But, I do not click on links because I consider it intellectual and spiritual laziness, as I said, so you must provide the passage in question and swear that you will defend them when I tear them to pieces.

Again, no.

At this point you're literally just repeating what you wrote in the last post, and doing it even as you describe "assertions" as "vain boasting." I think you are too blinded to seriously engage me, and that is why I swore my oath: never to be taken on a ride by the red herrings of sophists. I shall be bold, bloody and resolute, demanding accountability from my opponents. You taught me that. Twas not any of the Papists.

Who is Calvin to order God to not do what God has said He will do? If God decides to do Plan A, who are you or Calvin to say, “No God, you must do it my way!”?

But this is the position of the Arminians, who consistently accuse Calvin, Luther, the reformers, Augustine, and on and on, of teaching an "unfair" Gospel that teaches that God "does what He pleases in heaven and in Earth." Not one of our party has ever uttered the phrase "God must save us in a way that is fair!" This is the war cry of the Arminians, and, before them, the Papists. The Arminians are those who plead on the "willing," the Papists on the "running," but we say that God saves by His mercy only. This is where we stand today. Soli Deo gloria!

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God knew what Cain would do, but He did not need to compel him to do so.

That is most certainly true, and at no time is anyone compelled. But God would not have allowed him to sin, had it not been his will, and whoever says that God cannot change the will of a man to that which is good at any time denies His omnipotence; and God would not have allowed his sin to succeed in the murder of Abel, if this was not in His will. The idea that God was powerless to save Abel, or foresaw it and refused to do anything about it, or that anything occurs against God's will, is certainly a terrifying proposition, as we lose our assurance in God's power to protect us and to guide us in our lives, and we can no longer hope that "all things work unto good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom 8).

The scripture stands secure, and we rest easy, knowing that His providential control over the world is exactly what the scripture says it is: Absolute, over all matters of life and death.

108 posted on 05/09/2014 5:34:50 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“If we understand “whosoever” as declaring universal ability, we contradict the verses in John which declare this ability to be limited to those whom God gives it to, and whom Paul later writes cannot confess Christ “but by the Holy Ghost.”

Not hardly. Whosoever does refer to everyone that God has taken the initiative to reveal Himself to, which to some degree means EVERYONE. But not all will believe. Not because God doesn’t allow them to believe, but because

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

John never says that God has a secret will to only save a handful of names apart from their belief. John doesn’t say it, but you read it into his words because you ASSUME that meaning, based on your Calvinist beliefs.

“It does not remove the problem at hand: the origin of faith.”

On the contrary, faith is what we have when we believe God, following God’s revelation to us. That is by definition. Faith, by definition means: “confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.”

By definition, faith is something one does, not something one receives.

“But, I do not click on links because I consider it intellectual and spiritual laziness, as I said...”

That is OK. I consider it intellectual laziness to want someone to hand type long arguments for you instead of going to a link and reading. If you prefer not to know, then I cannot help you.

“Not one of our party has ever uttered the phrase “God must save us in a way that is fair!”

No Arminian makes that argument. We merely point out what GOD has said is the plan of salvation:

“The Son of Man must be lifted above the heads of men—as Moses lifted up that serpent in the desert—so that any man who believes in him may have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. You must understand that God has not sent his Son into the world to pass sentence upon it, but to save it—through him. Any man who believes in him is not judged at all. It is the one who will not believe who stands already condemned, because he will not believe in the character of God’s only Son.”

No mention of a secret drawing of names, with irresistible grace to some and irresistible damnation to others. I’m sorry God’s plan of salvation doesn’t match Calvin’s, but it is God’s choice to make, not Calvin’s.

Mat 21:32 “For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.

Jhn 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Mat 8:13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Mat 9:28 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
Luk 8:50 But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith.

Mat 21:22 “And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Mar 9:23 And Jesus said to him, “If you can! All things are possible for one who believes.”
Mar 9:24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”
Mar 11:23 “Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:40 “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Jhn 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 7:39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jhn 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Jhn 11:26 “and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”...
Jhn 11:40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”
Act 4:4 But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.
Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 9:33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Hbr 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.


109 posted on 05/09/2014 7:47:03 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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