Posted on 03/07/2014 10:14:06 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving "Romeo & Juliet" and hating Shakespeare's explanation of it.
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Correct. But Paul did not go there to establish his authority or to learn for himself the correct answer.
Acts 15:2
they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
At the conclusion of the Jerusalem council they sent men of their own along with Paul and Barnabas with letters of the official word, these men were Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Paul leaves all of this out in his own writings in Galatians.
If you were to actually Luther quote I asure you that you would never, ever say that again. It so condems the Papist heresy that I even shutter.
“You’re right.....this indicates Holy Tradition. That many truths were passed down face to face, person to person and they aren’t necessarily recorded in the Bible.”
John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.
So, based on the logic of your argument, even though these things could not fit into all the books in the world, they can be meticulously preserved by oral tradition? And why did this oral tradition later need to be written down since it did not need to be written down by the apostles?
No one is debating that the Bible does not contain every historical account of Christ or the apostles. But what is essential to our faith has been recorded for us by the apostles.
2 Peter 1:15
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.
The irony is thick considering that modern Catholics on this forum claim credit for the writing, preserving, and dissemination of scripture when there were periods of time when the Catholic church violently opposed men like William Tyndale fulfilling the command of God to spread His word. Do you Catholics also take credit for burning William Tyndale at the stake?
Why did the Catholic church only begin to make their Bible available in English AFTER they were unable to stop the spread of non-Catholic English (and other language) Bibles? They taught that reading the Bible for yourself is dangerous without the so-called “Church” to interpret it for you... much like what Catholic apologists say on this forum. So why did the Catholic church finally give in and print Bibles in English if no one can really understand them without the Catholic church to explain? Why did they not insist on keeping scripture in the Latin? Why was it translated from Hebrew and Greek to Latin in the first place?
The Bible warns over and over of false teachers which come not from outside the Church but inside.
Acts 20:29-30
For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
Revelation 3:12-17a
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, ‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
Here Jesus warns of false teaching in the Church. One false doctrine is of the Nicolaitans which literally means “conquerors of the laity”. This is exactly what the hierarchical Catholic system is. It is contrary to the doctrine Christ taught His disciples when they disputed who would be greatest. He showed and taught them to be servants. Peter also warns the elders (bishops) to lead like shepherds rather than following the worldly pattern of “lords over” the flock. (See 1 Peter 5:1-3.)
What remedy did Christ offer to the church for the internal false teaching? Repentance. He also indicated that if repentance did not happen, then He would come and fight these false teachers. By what means would the false teachers be defeated? By the sword of His mouth, meaning the word of God.
The Catholic church was called to repentance over and over and has repeatedly refused to cease the false doctrines. The clear need based on scripture is repentance. Apart from repentance, the remaining remedy for correction is by the word of God.
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
Please do not distort my comments. The keys Christ gave Peter indeed still exist, they are His Words, NOT the mystical traditions leavened down through the ages.
Strange. They were given to Peter by Christ. Why wouldn’t they exist in heaven where Peter opens and closes the gate?
Of course they were given to Peter and the rest of those who are of a mind to follow Christ can read for themselves what the keys open. But when a people replace Christ with Mary and a pope they have cut new imitation keys that open a different gate.
Peter's keys are no longer used. Mary nor a pope were ever behind the gate Peter's keys opened, for starters. This world is going to .ell in a hand basket so the Catholics are not alone in cutting new keys. As it was foretold would 'need be', by Christ Himself.
No, that authority comes from God.
That also avoids the issue, as that is a given, and does not deal with the instrumentality which Rome claims, and since Scripture comes from God, then your statement renders the "we-gave-you-the-Bible" polemic meaningless. Thus go back and answer it again if this repeated assertion is to have any real import.
Either being the instrument and steward of Scripture means implicit submission to them is warranted, or they are another instrument whose Truth claims are to be ultimately judged by Scripture in ascertaining and establishing their veracity.
Why do you?
If you are free to speak on matters of faith --- tell us why others should not be allowed to speak freely also.
Or else --- drop that meme (such as is highlighted above) and never bring that one to these pages again, if not conceding that it be one of utter hypocrisy...
Meanwhile, I will myself continue as I have been, occasionally bringing information, contending for the 'rightness' of this or that aspect of scripture or history, and every once in a while bearing witness or giving personal testimony to God having not abandoned us here on this earth -- though it can seem He be far away at times, particularly when one looks at the evil that mankind does in the world, and all the suffering which is the result.
We may even land on the same or much similar pages, as to that last aspect. When or if we do -- you have my permission to speak freely, even boldly if you dare.
I will do the same, though I seek no permission from yourself for it, for I have no real need of it.
I acquainted with Him--- not through or by my own works or righteousness, but through Christ's own.
For such as myself, there was no other Way.
If any around here (on FreeRepublic) have a real problem with that, let me know what the problem is. Put it in writing.
Never assume that once corrected/refuted, a RC will not continue to post the same propaganda. It has happened here too often. And thus the evasion.
Agreed. I think it is perhaps that both the accounts in Acts and Galatians reflect how Paul’s authority as an apostle was constantly being challenged. He had to make his case repeatedly. In Acts the believers were not willing to allow his authority as an apostle to settle the matter. In Galatians he does not feel the need to recount his subordinate role in this council in Jerusalem. Today, Paul’s authority as an apostle in unquestioned by pretty much anyone who identifies as “Christian”. During his ministry though, it was another story.
Paul goes further to assert his BETTER understanding of the Gospel for the Gentiles, describing himself as the apostle to the Gentiles. He also asserts that he labored more than any other apostle and was not inferior in any way to the other apostles, even Peter. He demonstrates his authority in recounting the need for him to publicly reprove Peter.
What do you call a thinking Catholic?
A Protestant.
I've seen this quote numerous times, however, where is it quoted in Luther's works? Considering the amount of usage, shouldn't this be sourced? Where is the link to Luther's work?
“... only the Catholic church was there at the time.”
Sorry but you are incorrect. First a bit of history. The 27 books that form the New Testament were first codified by Athanasius of Alexandria (A.D. 296-373). He was the most prominent theologian of the fourth century, and he served as bishop of Alexandria. The Church in Alexandria was formed by the Apostle Mark and is now known as the Coptic (meaning Egyptian) Church.
His list of canonical books was published as part of his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle of A.D. 367. After the list he declares, “these are the wells of salvation, so that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the sayings in these. Let no one add to these. Let nothing be taken away.”
It was not until A.D. 380 when the roman church became the official state religion under Emperor Theodosius I. Thus at a minimum, the Coptic (Egyptian) tradition is equal and parallel in timeline to the Roman tradition. Further, since it was a Coptic Bishop who identified the 27 books in the 367 epistle, the canon of the New Testament does NOT come from the Roman tradition.
Ooops! Dang history.
Ukrainian (Catholic) Church an example of 'synodality' for Pope
Traditional Rites in Union Now with the Catholic Church
Catholic conservatives: A traditionalist avant-garde
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Explains the 48,000 Papist denominations!
NOT
Nobody is trusting the Bible. They are trusting the Jesus the Bible tells us about.
On that note, the Bible must be trustworthy because not a church would exist without it. It is the infallible God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired word of God.
There is no other source of that kind of detailed knowledge of God.
So it’s hypocritical to claim to believe in God and Jesus and reject the authority of the very documents that teach us about Him.
Bible = God (Word made flesh, God-breathed, Alive, Spirit, Truth, Eternal, Pure etc), so in this very bad analogy, God would have to correctly be compared to Shakespeare, the Author, since you cannot separate God from His Word.
So that means the RCC is the tragedy, with two impudent teenagers who exacerbate tension between feuding families and then both die needlessly as the result of a friar’s ridiculous scheme?
The last place I go to understand love is to Romeo and Juliet, or even Shakespeare, who in this case is the author of confusion and strife. I go to Love Himself and His Word.
You don’t need religion to understand God’s Word. You need the pure Word of God that is both like fire and a hammer (Jeremiah 23:29), a light to guide (Psalm 119:105), the Sword of the Spirit (Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17), Life (Matthew 4:4), a cleansing agent (Ephesians 5:26), spiritual milk for growth of new Believers (1 Peter 2:2), solid food for mature Believers (Hebrews 5:11-14), power to create faith (Romans 10:17, 2 Timothy 3:15), for teaching and perfecting (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and the incorruptible seed that leads to Eternal Life (1 Peter 1:23).
Its sad to see such a low regard for God’s Word. God Himself has magnified His Word above His Name (Psalm 138:2).
Peter (the guy Catholics claim is the first pope) tells us that Jesus is the chief cornerstone. IOW, it's built on HIM, not men.
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LOL!!!!
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