Posted on 02/01/2014 1:39:19 PM PST by NYer
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SOLEMN PONTIFICAL MASS IN THE EXTRAORDINARY FORM FOR THE FEAST OF THE PRESENTATION OF THE LORD AT THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE INFANT OF PRAGUE
02/02 at 11:00 AM ET; 02/03 at 12:00 AM ET
Bishop Edward J. Slattery of Tulsa celebrates Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form at the National Shrine of the Infant of Prague in Prague, Oklahoma. LIVE.
You’ve made public statements about problems with the liturgy. What changes would you like to see?
I would like to see the liturgy become what Vatican II intended it to be. That’s not something that can happen overnight. The bishops who were the fathers of the council from the United States came home and made changes too quickly. They shouldn’t have viewed the old liturgy, what we call the Tridentine Mass or Missal of Pope John XXIII, as something that needed to be fixed. Nothing was broken. There was an attitude that we had to implement Vatican II in a way that radically affects the liturgy.
What we lost in a short period of time was continuity. The new liturgy should be clearly identifiable as the liturgy of the pre-Vatican II Church. Changes, like turning the altar around, were too sudden and too radical. There is nothing in the Vatican II documents that justifies such changes. We’ve always had Mass facing the people as well as Mass ad orientem [“to the east,” with priest and people facing the same direction]. However, Mass ad orientem was the norm. These changes did not come from Vatican II.
Also, it was not a wise decision to do away with Latin in the Mass. How that happened, I don’t know; but the fathers of the Council never intended us to drop Latin. They wanted us to hold on to it and, at the same time, to make room for the vernacular, primarily so that the people could understand the Scriptures.
You yourself have begun celebrating Mass ad orientem.
Yes, in our cathedral and a few parishes where the priests ask me to. Most of the time, I say Mass facing the people when I travel around the diocese or when I have a large number of priests concelebrating, because it works better that way.
A few priests have followed my example and celebrate ad orientem as well. I have not requested they change. I prefer to lead by example and let the priests think about it, pray about it, study it, and then look at their churches and see if it’s feasible to do.
And it’s positive when people are thinking about and talking about the liturgy.
When people make the liturgy part of their conversation, it is a good thing. As priests and laypeople discuss the liturgy, they’ll see how important it is and how it is a work of God and not our own.
But we must approach the liturgy on bended knee with tremendous humility, recognizing that it doesn’t belong to us. It belongs to God. It is a gift. We worship God not by creating our own liturgies, but by receiving the liturgy as it comes to us from the Church. The liturgy should be formed and shaped by the Church itself to help people pray better. And we all pray better when we are disposed to receive what God has offered, rather than creating something of our own.
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National Shrine of the Infant of Prague
Still there are two. Case close.
What do you mean by simpler, Biggirl? Do you have to go to a TLM to find reverence? I have been to NO that have been very reverent.
That’s why I attend Mass all dressed up, even though it is a Novus Ordo Mass. Ours is very reverent, so I have no problem with it.
We also have a new Music Director and the chants and proper music is wonderful, and live by the way.
The Archbishop did a Novus Ordo for the Dedication of our new church on Saturday, and it was outstanding. He put in a lot of catechesis and evangelization in explaining the Dedication of a New Church.
If you ever have the opportunity to attend a Dedication, do so — even if you have to drive 100 miles!
I would hope you weren’t saying that the Archbishop’s Dedication Mass was not reverent and holy, because it was!!
There are not too many Sunday Masses in our area that are reverent. Our “daily” Masses are pretty good, though. They (6:15 a.m.) are Novus Ordo, and there are no Eucharistic Ministers (or any altar servers). The only strong distraction is the Sign of Peace. However, if there was a daily TLM in the area, we would switch and go there. The two different forms of the Mass (after one has attended for awhile) seem almost like two different faiths completely (in our opinion). How many TLMs have you been to?
I would hope you weren’t saying that the Archbishop’s Dedication Mass was not reverent and holy, because it was!!No, I'm not saying that at all. Surely there are reverent NO Masses. But the more we attend the TLM, the more we see the differences between the two forms, and the closer we become to Christ when attending the Tridentine. Our NO Masses are not very reverent in our area, sad to say. As my husband stated some time ago to me, they're difficult just to "get through."
Allow me to shove my nose in here for a few minutes. I live in the epicenter of reverent NO Masses: Greenville SC. Within screaming distance we have Fr. Dwight Longenecker at Our Lady of the Rosary, Fr. Jay Scott Newman at St. Mary's and Fr. Christopher Smith at Prince of Peace. Those three priests are known the world round for liturgy, theology and dedication to Our Lord. They're all three converts for that matter.
With all the rich options available to my family we choose the simple sung EF Mass at Prince of Peace because it's the only time and place we can be at Mass without being jerked back and forth between the sublimity of prayer and the banality of the new ritual.
I understand the NO has had a major revamp in language recently but that's not enough to fundamentally change the horizontal nature that's built into the rite itself. There's only so much window dressing you can put on the NO before it starts to look like a parody of the EF and therein (I believe) lies the problem: At its core the new ritual is not supposed to be "reverent". It's supposed to be exactly like it is in most places.
That's my 3 cents anyways.
The case is far from closed. Most Catholics, throughout the world, still do not have access to a TLM within an hour of their home.
So don’t tell me about “choice”. It sounds too much like Planned Parenthood’s abuse of the same word.
The answer is “no”, I do not go to a TLM, but is there a rule that it is only offered if there is an interest?
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/marks.html
Thank-you, but right now, as a Catholic, I just do not have any interest in TLM, but respect the right of those that do want it.
Interesting; thanks for the comments! How many usually are in attendance at your EF? Do you have a daily one at Prince of Peace as well? We do not; not close by anyway, but we sure would love one. (Praying about it; not sure what else we can do to promote.)
We have a couple hundred who normally attend the EF on Sundays. We have the EF daily at noon but I never get to go.
http://www.princeofpeacetaylors.net/
What do you recall from attending mass back in the 50s?
Even by Novus Ordo Catholics on Internet forums.
I was a Lutheran in the 50s, but more respect from the kids to their parents (pre-Harry Potter), and more love shown from the parents to the children. A simpler time, when there was no abortion, and family life was focused around a mom and a dad.
Probably not as much as you remember from attending Mass back in the 30’s.
We can all agree that life, then, was much less stressful; the pace was slower, government was less intrusive and communication was simpler. Neighbors spoke with each other, children played outside and Sunday was set aside to worship God and dine as a family. Restaurant dining was a special occasion event. We lived just outside Manhattan, in Queens, a highly populated area. The only dining spots were a pizzeria and a chinese restaurant. Most families ate at home and cooked from scratch. Businesses, including supermarkets, department stores, barbers, etc. were closed on Sundays; that is no longer the case.
In today's high paced world, demand has grown for fast food and instant meals. No longer is it sufficient for some to purchase a head of lettuce, they want it chopped up in a bag; ditto for carrots, celery, broccoli, et al. Where we used to bring lunch from home to work, most people purchase their lunches today.
We have progressed from the telephone to instant calls on iphones, tablets and computers. If we were lucky enough to have a tv back in the 50s, programming was limited to 3 channels. News programs were 1/2 hour for local and 1/2 hour for national. Today, news is round the clock and cable providers supply 100s of channels.
Insofar as attending a catholic mass in the 50s, we did so out of a sense of obligation, reinforced by the notion that we would burn in hell if we did not show up. The only mass then was what is now referred to as the EF. My recollection of attending mass was that of being in a packed church with no microphones or air conditioning. As such, it was difficult to follow along. The altar servers gave the responses and the choir sang the hymns. Our presence was one of observer. Women were required to wear head coverings; sometimes that translated into a tissue on top of the head.
The point I am trying to make is that, from a distance, the grass always looks greener. When you get closer, you soon discover the weeds and bare patches. The gut reaction of most catholics is to blame the church. I look around the US today and find nothing that resembles the country in which I grew up. Look further and you will see the same is true in Europe and other parts of the globe. Societal norms have changed to accommodate the desire for instant gratification. The following thread, posted earlier today, provides an excellent profile of the world in which we now live.
Here again, I am referring to the TLM which was the only liturgy celebrated in the Latin Church at that time. Imagine a small church packed with hundreds of people (SRO) on a hot summer day. A few fans whirled above to circulate the torpid air. The priest, without any microphone, is facing forward as he leads the congregation in their celebration of a liturgy in the Latin language. He is wearing heavy vestments which only add to his personal discomfort in the heat of the day. He rattles through the Latin (which we can't hear due to the lack of a microphone). Essentially, our participation at the mass is one of obligation ... not desire. It was not uncommon for older women to take out their rosaries and pray on their beads during the mass.
The TLM that you experience today, is held in an air conditioned church with microphones that enable you to follow along, even on the hottest day of the year. The beauty and richness of the liturgy, hence, come alive. Attendance, no doubt, does not match that of the NO mass and those in attendance have CHOSEN to be there.
I am just trying to put this into perspective of then vs now. About 10 years ago, someone suggested I seek out and attend a TLM in my community. I still had my missal and set off one Sunday to experience the beauty of the older liturgy. To my amazement, there were women praying their beads, the priest rattled off the prayers in Latin, the altar servers gave the responses, the choir sang and, as in the past, my participation was one of observer.
Still desirous to find a church where I could worship our Lord in a devout manner, I committed it to prayer and began visiting other catholic parishes in the surrounding area. That journey led me to a Maronite Catholic Church. The liturgy is chanted, incense is used throughout the mass and the words of institution (consecration) are in Aramaic, the language spoken by our Lord, the Blessed Mother and the Apostles. The parish community is small, making it an extended family. We all pitch in to ensure the well being of the parish and each other. Ultimately, like you, it fulfilled my desire to worship God in a reverent manner while sharing my God given abilities with the community. In that sense, we have both found the "pearl of great worth".
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