Posted on 08/31/2013 3:38:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
Full interview (roughly one hour) with former Roman Catholic priests Richard Bennett (website: http://www.BEREANBEACON.ORG) & Bartholomew Brewer, Ph.D, author of "Pilgrimage from Rome - A Testimony" (website: http://www.MTC.COM) and former nun Rocio Zwirner give glory to God for their exodus from the Roman Catholic Church & into the glorious grace of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Description from youtube)
For me, that’s not just a “mistake”. It’s just one more example of what happened as the result of Vatican II’s false ecumenism...which was a tragedy, not a just a mistake.
“Your reply is a pretty pathetic attempt to have it both ways.”
Nope. I just posted what was true.
“To accuse someone of being a statutory rapist of an underage girl with no evidence,”
I never once accused him. I said: “What’s the legal consent age in the Philippines? I wonder if he was a statutory rapist?”
“and wresting this from a partial quote from his book when he was still a young priest, is rather disgusting and underhanded.”
I do not own the book. Therefore, I, JUST LIKE YOU MOST LIKELY, must use an online source and the most obvious online source cannot be used here at FR because it is banned. I therefore used another source which had a shorter quote - which in no way changed the context of the information. Also, it had nothing to do with his being a “young priest”. He was well into adulthood when ordained (age 26 at his own reckoning of years from the full passage).
“For me, that’s not just a “mistake”. It’s just one more example of what happened as the result of Vatican II’s false ecumenism...which was a tragedy, not a just a mistake.”
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. It is irrelevant to my point. He did something wrong in any case but seems to have been sincere - no matter how wrong he was.
” I therefore used another source which had a shorter quote - which in no way changed the context of the information.”
So then it seems you don’t even own the book and you used a shorter quote that was out of context with a sentence missing and then speculated that he might be a statutory rapist. Sounds like you made a thorough investigation, unlike his Bishop. You also accused him of being a big liar, without giving any examples of lies he had allegedly told. You are also accusing me of being a liar.
I think you should take a page from Bart himself and leave off the personal attacks altogether:
An Irenic Testimony
By T. L. Jones
“I had the privilege of knowing Bart Brewer and his wife. He was a very kindly man who cared about the salvation of souls. This book recounts the experiences and influences that led him out of the Roman Catholic priesthood and into the evangelical faith and ministry. What impressed me was that Bart didn’t question the sincerity of the seminary students he studied with nor the priests he knew, nor the many Roman Catholic people he grew up with. His burden was to show what the Bible says about the way to eternal life.”
The difference between the character of folks who stay in the RCC compared to those who leave really is a big difference!
18. My Filipina wife was 20 when I met her.
you wrote:
“So then it seems you don’t even own the book...”
I read about this in 1995. I don’t need to own the book. If you own the book, why didn’t you post the page numbers when you posted the text?
“and you used a shorter quote that was out of context”
False. The text was not at all out of context and the longer text you posted - probably violating board rules because it is from a banned website - was even more damning.
“with a sentence missing”
No missing sentence changed the fact that he was romantically attached to a teenage girl - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE ADMITTED TO.
“and then speculated that he might be a statutory rapist.”
No, I wonder IF he was one. I did not “speculate” that “he might be” one. Those are two entirely different things. To a Protestant anti-Catholic, however, truth doesn’t matter.
“Sounds like you made a thorough investigation, unlike his Bishop.”
Unlike his bishop? Sounds like his bishop did exactly the right thing since Brewer admitted he “enjoyed watching the girls giggle as they flirted with teasing boys” and his “attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students who thoroughly captivated [his] interest.” The teenager was “mature beyond her years...lovely and shyly responded as [they] stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and [Brewer] soon interpreted [their] newly discovered affection as love.” Those are his words.
And then, “It is not surprising that soon the bishop learned of this, though he was many miles away, and he quickly returned me to the States before any serious relationship could develop. The embarrassment of this discipline was difficult for both of us, but life always moves on.”
“You also accused him of being a big liar, without giving any examples of lies he had allegedly told.”
He was a liar. He lied, for instance, about his understanding of Seventh Day Adventism even though he was an SDA minister at one point.
“You are also accusing me of being a liar.”
Okay, then let’s take a step toward resolving that right now: From where did you get the text, the longer passage from Brewer, that you posted? What website did you cut and paste from?
Mine was 38 and STILL looks 20
“Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. It is irrelevant to my point. He did something wrong in any case but seems to have been sincere - no matter how wrong he was.”
Just goes to show how relativistic you have to be to remain in the Catholic religion. John Paul II is also on record saying that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. That
“all men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation.[1]
say that all men are saved.[2]
· say that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the Creed is present, in all its essential elements, in non-Catholic sects.[3]
· say that the Catholic Church is in communion with non-Catholic sects.[4]
· say that the Catholic Church is incapable of giving credibility to the Gospel, unless there is a “reunion of Christians.”[5]
· say that the Catholic Church shares a common apostolic faith with the non-Catholic sects.[6]
· say that non-Catholic sects have an apostolic mission.[7]
· say that the Holy Ghost uses non-Catholic sects as a means of salvation.[8]
· say that it is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience.[9]
· say that a properly ordered society is one in which all religions are given free rein to practice, proselytize and propagate.[10]
· say that Our Lord’s descent into hell simply means that He was buried.[11]
· participate in all forms of non-Catholic worship, including that of the Lutherans, the Jews, the Hindus, the American Indians, the Polynesians, to mention only some;
· praise the voodoo religion;
· permit the abomination of Assisi, in which a golden statue of Buddha was placed upon an altar an incensed by a Buddhist priest;
· permit the ecumenical abominations contained in the Ecumenical Directory.
· approve of sacrilege to the Blessed Sacrament by permitting non-Catholics to receive It.
Footnotes:
[1] Redemptor Hominis, 13.3
[2] Homily in Santa Maria in Trastevere, April 27, 1980
[3] Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion., (1992)
[4] ibid.
[5] Osservatore Romano, May 20, 1980
[6] ibid.
[7] Osservatore Romano, June 10, 1980
[8] Catechesi Tradendæ, October 16, 1979
[9] Redemptor Hominis, 12.2 and Dives in Misericordia, and his speech to the United Nations on October 2, 1979 and in many other places.
[10] Vatican II, Dignitatis Humanæ, a document which John Paul II says has a particular binding force.
[11] General Audience, January 11, 1989
[12] May 31, 1980 in a speech to the Moslems in Paris.
[13] The Denzinger is the book which contains the teachings of the popes and general councils.
http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=29&catname=5#_edn12
So it seems that on the one hand, your Popes are in constant retreat and are constantly trying to appear tolerant and appealing to not just Protestants, but even giving credibility to Hindus, Voodoo practitioners and the like. Whereas (some) of the Catholic faithful, like on FR, attack their opponents with the most repulsive of insults.
How these folks don’t keep from going mad, I do not know. Considering Francis has also already been saying that atheists are “first class children of God” due to Christ’s sacrifice (when, really, they’re not children of God at all so long as they are unbelievers), I suspect that he will be giving us lots of new material for the future as well.
Well, I’ll keep that in mind for when you come out with your book. :)
“Just goes to show how relativistic you have to be to remain in the Catholic religion.”
Well, I guess you have to change the subject since you lost the debate on Brewer already. Also, I expressed no relativism at all. My point was the same through out.
“John Paul II is also on record saying that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.”
Muslims and Christians both profess to worship the God of Abraham. John Paul II was not wrong to make that point nor to take Muslims at their word even of their understanding of God is limited by their unbelief in the Trinity. But again, since you lost on Brewer, I guess next we can expect the kitchen sink.
“No missing sentence changed the fact that he was romantically attached to a teenage girl - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE ADMITTED TO.”
Romantically “attached”? Like going out with her? He mentions no attachment, only that he was getting too close and his Bishop shipped him off when he heard of it. Nor did he commit statutory rape, like you speculated. That’s what you get for quoting one sentence, without bothering to read the entire context.
I find his honesty compelling, since there was no reason for him to admit that he was falling in love with a high school girl while yet a Priest.
All the more reason why requiring such vows are demonic to begin with:
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1Ti 4:1-3)
1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
“He was a liar. He lied, for instance, about his understanding of Seventh Day Adventism even though he was an SDA minister at one point.”
Brewer did not lie about his involvement with the SDA, and his reason for leaving them due to their reliance on the teachings of their founder. This is a pure invention on your part, trying your best to paint a good man with deceit.
It’s not working:
“‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.” (‘Pilgrimage from Rome’, Chapter 11 pg. 95-100)
Nice try though. Maybe you should rename yourself “Satan,” since you are quite the accuser.
“Muslims and Christians both profess to worship the God of Abraham. John Paul II was not wrong to make that point nor to take Muslims at their word even of their understanding of God is limited by their unbelief in the Trinity.”
He said they worship the same God. He did not say they profess to worship the same God, even though they really don’t. Your religion is wrong to claim that Muslims worship the God of the Bible. In reality, they worship a demonic moon-god who is a badly perverted version of the one found in the Bible. He is an idol that does not exist.
” But again, since you lost on Brewer, I guess next we can expect the kitchen sink.”
Sounds like you’re losing the debate, since you’re already claiming victory. But more important than the debate though is the truth.
And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?
“And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?”
Primarily because the truth matters and I don’t care about ecumenical efforts even to fight the progressives.
Secondly, because some of the Catholics are trying to make the Religion Forum a place for Roman propaganda, as seen in their thread of similar name to mine, but in the reverse, also posted today.
I asked you if you had the book. I guess the answer is no.
You are - apparently - digging your hole deeper by cutting and pasting from more websites without admitting you used a banned one.
You posted this (oddly with double quotes):
“‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.” (‘Pilgrimage from Rome’, Chapter 11 pg. 95-100)
Apparently you lifted that from here: http://www.takeheed.net/Take_Heed_2010/Current_Concerns/May_2010/Seventh_day_Adventist_pastor_resigns.htm The parenthetical comments might be a give away. The exact same ellipses. Imagine that. Here is what the website I just mentioned says:
After leaving the Roman Catholic priesthood Bart trained and became an SDA pastor but in chapter 11 of his book [pp 95-100] ‘Pilgrimage from Rome’ he wrote the following –
‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.
You wrote: “Romantically “attached”?”
Yep, and I bet if it was your teenage daughter you would see it exactly that way - just before you punched Brewer in the face.
“Like going out with her? He mentions no attachment, only that he was getting too close and his Bishop shipped him off when he heard of it.”
Getting too close? Uh, try this: “After a while though, my attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students who thoroughly captivated my interest...She was lovely and shyly responded as we stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and I soon interpreted our newly discovered affection as love.”
HE WAS IN LOVE WITH HER AND YOU THINK THERE WAS NO ROMANTIC ATTACHMENT? The lengths you Protestant anti-Catholics will go to to cover for your Protestant anti-Catholic heroes is astounding. Then Brewer continues:
“It is not surprising that soon the bishop learned of this,”
Oops! That means it was obvious to others who reported on the young lovers (remember, he said they were in love).
“The embarrassment of this discipline was difficult for both of us, but life always moves on.”
So, you say there was no romantic attachment, but he says he “interpreted” their “affection as love” and their separation was “difficult”.
“Nor did he commit statutory rape, like you speculated.”
Look up “speculate”. You clearly do not know the meaning of it. I never speculated. Also, how do you know he did not commit statutory rape? What is your evidence for that.
“That’s what you get for quoting one sentence, without bothering to read the entire context.”
I read the entire context and nothing I quoted went against it. Everything you posted has shown that what I posted in the first place was correct. You need to learn what the word “speculate” means. Work on that.
Now, on to your next bad attempt at an argument:
“Brewer did not lie about his involvement with the SDA,”
I never said he did lie about his involvement. Do you read much?
“and his reason for leaving them due to their reliance on the teachings of their founder. This is a pure invention on your part, trying your best to paint a good man with deceit.”
No. This is what Brewer wrote (and I am using now the same banned website you apparently used but won’t own up to):
“Not long after I was ordained as a Seventh Day Adventist minister,....”
WHOA! Did you see that? He was ALREADY ordained as an SDA minister. He had already gone through the SDA ministerial training by this point. That takes MONTHS AND MONTHS! And yet, he then wrote this:
“The one that became a turning point in my life was that the writings of Ellen G. White are “equally inspired as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.” Disturbed, I counseled with a highly respected leader, but could in no way reconcile this in my conscience.”
There’s no way Brewer could go through all of THOSE MONTHS of ministry training for the SDA and only discover sometime afterward what they really teach about E. G. White when it is plain from their publically accessible literature at the time.
Now, from where did you get the first Brewer quote you posted in post 10? Will you admit where you got it from? I’m still betting no at this point. To admit the truth is hard for an anti-Catholic Protestant. Lies and deception come to them so easily.
LOL, ok, I'll buy that.
“He said they worship the same God. He did not say they profess to worship the same God, even though they really don’t.”
Since his statement was not part of the ordinary magisterium and it wasn’t an ex cathedra pronouncement I really don’t care what he said. It changes exactly nothing of the faith.
“Your religion is wrong to claim that Muslims worship the God of the Bible.”
Your opinion is duly noted, but you’re opinion is based on a false premise. The CCC, which is the statement that matters since it is that which is a sure norm, says “profess”. Case closed.
“In reality, they worship a demonic moon-god who is a badly perverted version of the one found in the Bible. He is an idol that does not exist.”
And none of that changes the fact that you’re wrong about Brewer.
“And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?”
Greeting Puny Humans is right when he says: “Primarily because the truth matters”. The problem is he shows no evidence of knowing much truth.
Now, from where did you get the first Brewer quote you posted in post 10? Will you admit where you got it from? I’m still betting no at this point. To admit the truth is hard for an anti-Catholic Protestant. Lies and deception come to them so easily.
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