Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
yes, I am aware of Tetzel’s over reach and the Quid Pro Quo of masses for the dead.
The excesses aside, purgatory and indulgences are not found in the bible and only appear 700 - 1000 years after the resurrection.
“The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.”
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html#ixzz2dICn01T0
>> And “Don’t eat fish on Friday” is a prep for WHAT? <<
.
The dissing of Dagon’s birthday party?
Is eternity unchanging?
I don't understand the question. Are you talking about a state of suspended animation? The universe is in a constant state of change/motion.
Is there change in eternity? I guess there must be, since you say God is there waiting for us.
There must be one state of existence in eternity without humans and then at some other “time” (for lack of a better word), be a different state of existence where humans are included in Heaven.
I believe Heaven is eternal and unchanging.
I believe the universe is constantly changing, but I don’t believe that Heaven or eternity is part of the universe. The universe is created.
What made her special? Was she just some random choice by God to be an incubator for our Lord? Mary is more than just special. It amazes me how anyone could be so cavalier about the enormity of her role and place in salvation history.
She is singular, unique in a way that no one before or since or forever will be. There is no comparing her to any prophet or saint as she is the only person to truly hold the living incarnate God within her own body as He became Man. And during that time, He did not cease to be God.
It is not that Mary is more effective or that prayer to Jesus directly is not sufficient. It is a matter of knowing that God has always used humanity to reveal Himself and as a conduit for His Word and His Grace and His covenants. So, in her and in the saints, we find God’s will perfected.
They are not dead humans, they are living, eternal souls always in the presence of God and unencumbered by human faults and the things of this world. In Revelations five and eight we learn of the incense in which the prayers of God’s people/saints are delivered to Him by His angels.
God’s people are all those who believe in Him and are written in the Book of Life. They are those who have come before us and those who are yet with us and those who are still to come.
Death does not separate us from God. It only separates our human bodies from our souls. So, those prayers offered to God are the prayers of ALL who are His, which includes Mary and the saints who, though no longer live in this world are very much alive with Him.
Their prayer, their intercession is no different than yours or mine except they are fully righteous in all ways and at all times because they have run the race and attained the place Jesus has prepared for them. He promised that He was going to prepare a place for each of us. Imagine the place of honor He must have prepared for His own mother!
And finally.....
Jude was not Jesus’ brother, his mother was Mary, the wife of Clophas and not Mary, the mother of Jesus. Scripture makes that clear. He is the patron saint of lost causes or desperate causes, so he is asked for his aid by many thousands of Catholics.
Is anyone going to walk the golden streets? Is anyone going to receive their Heavenly robes? Is there going to be a Judgement in Heaven? All of these events would be classified as changes. So I do not understand your statement. Time was invented (the same as the universe) and will no longer need to be heeded.
Or not knowing, as the case may be.
It's not understanding the Incarnation and what it means.
It’s not can’t. It’s that I don’t care to go down that rabbit hole with you. It is immaterial to the discussion. It’s just another deflection that Catholics need to stay away from the truth.
I am not planning on doing any walking. I am planning on, God willing, being embraced into the Presence of God. Eternal, unchanging God.
You have to realize metaphor when you read it.
Walking on golden streets is downright pedestrian compared to the Beatific Vision.
LOL And what makes you think Protestants can’t be wrong? Protestants after all are simply daughters of the Catholic Church. Luther you must remember was a Catholic who retained way to much of the Catholic error. As for John Calvin, what can I say about Calvin other than the simple name Michael Servetus?
So you really think that soldier is asking whatever that gravestone represents to do something for him? Really?
Not if they are used serve God they can’t. God says so Himself.
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God
>> or they should be eschewed entirely.<<
Nice try but God Himself defines what should be.
I beg to differ.
Jesus said that those who believe in Him already HAVE eternal life.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
We believers are already seated with Him in the heavenly places. Our bodies just need to catch up with out spirits.
Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Except Mary, apparently. She's dead and rotting in the grave.
****It’s not understanding the Incarnation and what it means.****
I think that has been the case from the very beginning.
Jews rejected Him because they didn’t understand.
Judas betrayed Him because he didn’t understand.
Disciples left Him because they didn’t understand.
None of that has changed. They didn’t understand because they didn’t believe and therefore didn’t trust.
Belief, and through belief trust. That is what faith is; belief that Jesus is the Son of God and trust that He will deliver all that He promised.
He recognized it as wine.
Luke 22:17-18 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
The whole passover meal was one of remembrance. They didn't actually drink blood as it is forbidden in the Law. They would have been lawbreakers. Had Jesus given His disciples His actual blood to drink, or had they even thought it was actual blood, they would have not drank it.
Peter himself said that he had never eaten anything unclean. Eating blood would have made him unclean so as an observant Jew, he would not have done it.
Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God
Now tell us how wedding rings are used in serving or worshipping God?
OK. Here goes......
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Romans 10:4-13 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
On these ritual/cultural issues --- three on kosher (for Jews) food, and one on lawful (for Jews) marriage --- Paul did notalways fully implement the decision of the Jerusalem Council. He for instance advised the Gentiles in Corinth to "eat whatever is sold in the meat markets"(I Corinthians 10:25)--- no matter if they were offered to pagan gods, because the pagan gods are "nothing," they don't exist.
1 Corinthians 8 is very important in this regard, for St Paul shows that while there is nothing technically wrong with eating meat sold from a pagan temple, there is potential that a spiritually weak Christian brother could see that and be tempted to fall back into paganism. For this case, it's wise to avoid such situations, just as it's wise not to bring alcohol to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting, even if you have no problems with drinking and it's clear drinking isn't sinful in itself.
For centuries now, Christians have not sought out any distinctive kind of slaughterhouse regulations which would require than animals not be strangled (e.g wringing the necks of chickens and other poultry), or that meat not contain blood (esp. the liver, heart and other vascular organ meats).
So the upshot is,"table fellowship" between Jewish and Gentile Christians was important. That's why what they bought from the slaughterhouse or the meat market was such a big issue at the time. Our of a concern for kindness and unity, you wouldn't do anything that would shockingly disturb people or trigger visceral negative reactions.
The Haydock Bible Commentary notes, "This prohibition was but temporary, and has long since ceased to oblige; more especially in the western churches."
As for the Lord's Eucharistic Body and Blood? This is not referenced at the Council of Jerusalem at all. The Eucharist is not an animal carcass being carved or animal body fluids being drained. The Eucharist is the whole, living, Resurrected Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. So we're talking about something quite different from slaughterhouse procedures.
The Catholic church has mistranslated some passages of Scripture. Therefore, you cannot use them right?
If sola scriptura is invalidated because there may an inaccuracy in the translation of a word, then that invalidates anything the Catholic church has to say when they deliberately mistranslate a word.
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