Pope Francis discovers charismatic movement a gift to the whole church

What does your post have to do with the article posted?

Plenty ... did you enjoy the sermon?

At a healing Mass the priest was laying hands on a friend of mine and praying when all of a sudden, he was speaking in tongues.

It happens.

Most welcome.

It does...like “the wind blowing where it wills”, thus is the work of the Holy Spirit!

And so it was with me, when I was invited to a Catholic Charismatic meeting....nuff said!

ping

Most of it, I would say, is purely psychological. In other cases, it is diabolical. But in every case, it’s something that does not engender any kind of love for the truth or encourage real thinking.

I call it buffoonery.

“Plenty” is not an answer.

Was it a charismatic Mass? If so, that explains it.

From your link to “Prophecy”, it is stated:

“Bishops and priests also receive this gift (prophecy), although not all of them open themselves to the influence of the Holy Spirit, since when speaking in prophecy one is the instrument of God, but some actually having the opportunity to prophesy become obstacles of the message of God.”

Care to name any of your priests or bishops who are open to this “gift” of “prophecy”. And what exactly have they prophesied? Please share with us.

“I call it buffoonery”

I call your description accurate.

I don’t really disagree with your first paragraph. But to cite Benny Hinn or someone who doesn’t really heal doesn’t sway my mind when there are before and after x-rays and tests of people whom Jesus heals through those whom He has gifted with healing abilities. The presence of phony healers doesn’t mean there aren’t some of have charismatic gifts of healing.

“to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit” -1 Cor 12:9

God heals through the human instrument He has gifted. I thought this was understood without being said.

“to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit” -1 Cor 12:9

The problem is that everybody always talks about before and after X-rays, even those “healed” by Benny Hinn (just do a google search). But I’ve never actually myself seen any of these wonderful miracles, only heard about them from other people who claim up and down that they happened... to someone else.

This is not to say that God does not heal, or that God absolutely does not perform miracles. I was reading an old book on the Calvinist reformers of Scotland, and they were full of things that would remind you of the Book of Acts. But, they have no resemblance to what these people claim. Dr. John Gill, in his eulogy for his 12 year old daughter, talks about her vision of a man on horseback riding over and slaying her with a sword, only to wake up in heaven walking with the Saints. As it turned out, she died not long after, with Gill remarking that the dream was a “perfect emblem” of that death that would come upon her.

But in all of this the emphasis and purpose are completely different, and certainly no one was girating on the floor or giving heed to doctrines of devils like so many of these Charismatic/Pentecostal groups do.

I don’t know if you are a Catholic or not, but say you aren’t; do you think that God would move with Catholics who deny the efficacious work of Christ on the cross? And not only does He fail to correct them, but encourages their idolatries and various behaviors?

Or say that you are a Catholic. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit, outside of the Roman Catholic religion, would not only acknowledge the true salvation of people outside that religion, but promote their doctrines?

Or say you are someone who walks into a service by the Oneness Pentecostals, and you see them doing all the things that you claim to do, and more? They also claim to have a “healing” ministry, and they speak in tongues (in fact, they believe speaking in tongues is required for salvation), amongst many other claims. And yet they deny the Trinity, and claim that baptism must be done by someone of their church and in the name of Jesus in order to be valid, in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

No matter how jaded you are, you have to admit that these people are damned, and teach a damnable theology.

What really matters is not any of these miracles, but rather doctrine. Or, better to say, the Truth. And what matters is none of these miraculous gifts, but the gifts of faith, love, and charity, which is what really follows a renewed life. And what converts men is not signs at all, or human reasoning, but the power and moving of the Holy Spirit, which is invisible, and happens in the heart, and in the soul that is quickened.

If you are speaking of Doctors and medicine, I have no argument with you there, just like I won’t argue with a person who had cancer or some other ailment, was prayed for, or attended a mass somewhere, and found that his cancer was cured. There are many documented healings from both catholic or protestant sources where God has acted in a sovereign manner where medicine had failed or at least where God has chosen to operate beyond medicine beyond the need of a human conduit(other than the praying minister and/or deacons).

I do have the same concerns as you when it comes false Pentecostalism. One has to be discerning and run away from any Pentecostal movements not coupled with strong Orthodoxy.
I had run into situations where the Bibles genuine exhortation to examine one-self and to ‘test the spirts’ were seen as “introspection” and there-fore not spiritual. One was expected to accept what-ever when the Bible and conscience seemed to indicate danger or “don’t go there”!

The Holy Spirit is supposed to equip the saints for ministry and to be a comfort in a time for trouble...He always points toward Jesus, his resurrection, and teaches our hearts about the deep things of God bringing them to mind as He will. The joy or “times of refreshing” He brings are gifts but are not the whole object of why He is a part of our lives.

Many of the Assemblies of God churches show good balances between Orthodoxy and the Numinous experiential. Where you see strong Orthodox teaching in the Charismatic or Pentecostal churches where the teaching of the blood stained cross is not shunned, that’s where you will see the Holy Spirit ready to move in full measure “as he will”!

I know a man who was having issues with post surgery related to his Chrohns disease(fistulas were the issue). We prayed for him as a group in our church. The man was in the hospital at the time and had no knowledge of what we were doing).

The man reports later(he had had the strongest urge to call me at work to tell me) that about the same hour we were praying for him, his abdomen began to visibly bulge over a few moments and opened up releasing a whole mound of purulent noxious contents. He was cleaned up and rebandeaged. His wound finally closed within a couple of days and he was out of the hospital symptom free. He knew something had happened to him and wanted to tell everyone. I was not a personal friend of his so I found his desire to call me surprising but after a number of years perhaps not. I do know when last I saw him, 6 years had passed with no more resumption of his symptoms.(there was talk of healing in a Sunday School class and I mentioned the incident from 6 years before...some uttered skepticism when I mentioned that I had believed God had healed him after prayer in that same sunday school class 6 years before but the man was in attendance in the class and he confirmed that he had no further resumption of his Chrohns disease!!)(I also found the hesitancy of some to believe that God still heals directly where he wants to also distressing).

“Or say that you are a Catholic. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit, outside of the Catholic religion,
would not only acknowledge the true salvation of people outside that religion”

I am Catholic and not only does the Church teach that Christians outside the Church can be saved, but the Church also teaches that there is a possibility of even non-Christians being saved.”

“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they have known its necessity.”
-Catechism of the Catholic Church -No.1260

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the Holy Spirit doesn’t work with Christians outside the Catholic Church. Despite the differences on a number of issues, there is actually much more that unites Catholics and other Christians than divides them. But the Catholic Church teaches that the Fullness of Truth resides in Her.

“you have to admit that these people are damned”

No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned. Who knows what crimes the good thief committed. He was probably on his way to damnation but He was saved in the last hours of his life. Moses murdered a man. King David made sure a man would be killed in battle so he could have his wife. Saul was there when Stephen was being stoned and who knows how many Christians died in prison after he dragged them off. God’s Mercy is Unfathomable and tries to the very end to save every human being. I can’t remember what Council it was, but the Catholic Church teaches that every human being receives sufficient Grace for Salvation. If this were not true, throngs on Judgment Day could accuse God of being unjust.

“What really matters is not any of these miracles but doctrine.”

But some people only first come to belief through miracles. If you have a hardened sinner who God sees will not repent unless He intervenes, He may work a miracle for that person or someone close to them so that they will open themselves up to the gift of faith. It’s true that Jesus wanted people to believe in him and his words whether or not He did miracles for them. Truth is more important than signs and wonders but miracles worked by Jesus and the Apostles helped establish and spread the Church. I admit that people who are interested in wonders and don’t care much about doctrine and Truth seem like the ones who will be taken in by false miracles at the end of the world.

“in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.”
-2 Thess 2:9-12

In that post “human instrument” means healers. But I’m not denying that God can heal directly without anyone’s intercession.

“No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned.”

Someone who denies the trinity, and asserts that salvation is only through baptism by approved members of their religion, can possibly be saved.

As for Roman Catholic teachings on people being saved outside of Christianity, certainly it does not match what your religion used to believe. And last I checked, Luther and the entire reformation, indeed, even Augustine, Chyrsostom, or any person who believed in salvation by faith alone without the working of the law, are anathematized by Trent and the many pronouncements by your Popes. Roman Catholic opinion now, which even goes so far as to open up the way to Atheists, is merely a sign of its weakness and decay. More importantly, however, is that it is anti-Biblical.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Ignorance of Jesus Christ is no excuse, for the same reason why no one outside of the religion of Moses had any excuse, though not being under any covenant or obligation by God to have mercy on them. They are guilty for their sins, which they know, in themselves, are what they are.

It is for this claim that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ that I would never want to unite in any way with the Roman Catholic church.

“No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned. Who knows what crimes the good thief committed. He was probably on his way to damnation but He was saved in the last hours of his life. Moses murdered a man. King David made sure a man would be killed in battle so he could have his wife. Saul was there when Stephen was being stoned and who knows how many Christians died in prison after he dragged them off. God’s Mercy is Unfathomable and tries to the very end to save every human being.”

God is not bound to have mercy on every human being, nor is His will so weak that He cannot save every human being if He wanted. He is utterly sovereign in salvation. Just like He only chose the promised Seed of Abraham, and saved them by His grace though they deserved it not. So likewise God in this new covenant only saves those whom He chooses to have mercy on out of the world, and not the whole world itself.

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” (Rom 9:8-20)

What’s strange about your statements is that you seem to acknowledge that salvation is by grace only, and not of works, by pointing out the horrible sins of David and other such saints. Yet, the entire premise of a non-Christian being saved is built upon their supposed merits for to earn salvation.

This is why I cannot take such things seriously as Charismatics, especially those who took their hyper-emotionalism into the Catholic religion. It’s anti-Christian at its core and seems to be a vehicle for a false ecumenicism. Unless we hold fast to those doctrines delivered to us by the Apostles, we aren’t Christians.

Do miracles happen? Does God still answer prayers? Yes.

But does God spread false doctrines and damnation with His Spirit? No.