Posted on 07/26/2013 3:22:28 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
The Gift – The Testimony of Former Roman Catholic Priest Charles Chiniquy
I was born and baptized a Roman Catholic in 1809, and I was ordained priest in the year 1833, in Canada. I am now in my seventy-fourth year, and it is nearly fifty years since I received the dignity of the priesthood in the Church of Rome.
For twenty-five years I was a priest of that Church, and I tell you frankly that I loved the Church of Rome, and she loved me. I would have shed every drop of my blood for my Church and would have given a thousand times my life to extend her power and dignity over the continent of America, and over the whole world. My great ambition was to convert the Protestants, and bring them into my Church, because I was told, and I preached, that outside the Church of Rome there was no salvation, and I was sorry to think that those multitudes of Protestants were to be lost.
A few years after I was born we lived in a place where there were no schools. My mother became my first teacher, and the first book in which she taught me to read was the Bible. When I was eight or nine years old I read the Divine Book with an incredible pleasure, and my heart was much taken up with the beauty of the Word of God. My mother selected the chapters she wished me to read, and the attention I gave to it was such that, many times, I refused to go and play with the little boys outside in order to enjoy the pleasure of reading the Holy Book. Some of the chapters I loved more than others, and these I learned by heart.
But after my mother died, the Bible disappeared from the house, probably through the priest who had tried to obtain possession of it before. Now this Bible is the root of everything in this story. That is the light which was put into my soul when young, and, thanks be to God, that light has never been extinguished. It has remained there: it is to that dear Bible, by the mercy of God, that I owe today the unspeakable joy which I feel at being among the redeemed, among those who have received the light, and are drinking at the pure fountain of truth.
But perhaps you are inclined to say, “Do not the Roman Catholic priests allow their people to read the Bible?” Yes, I thank God that it is so. It is a fact that today, almost all over the world, the Church of Rome grants permission to read the Bible, and you will find the Bible in the homes of some Roman Catholics.
But when we have confessed this we must tell the whole truth. When the priest puts the Bible in the hands of his people, or when a priest receives the Bible from his church, there is a condition. The condition is that though the priest or people may read the Bible, they must never, under any circumstances, interpret a single word according to their conscience, their intelligence, or in their own mind. When I was ordained a priest I swore that I would interpret the Scriptures only according to the unanimous consent of the Holy Fathers.
Friends, go to Roman Catholics today, and ask them if they have permission to read the Bible. They will tell you, “Yes, I can read it.” But ask, “Have you permission to interpret it?” They will tell you, “No.” The priest says positively to the people, and the Church says positively to the priest, that they cannot interpret a single word of the Bible according to their own intelligence and their own conscience, and that it is a grievous sin to take upon themselves the interpretation of a single word. The priest says in effect to the people, “If you try to interpret the Bible with your own intelligence you are lost. It is a most dangerous book. You may read it, but it is better not to read it, because you cannot understand it.”
What is the result of such teaching? The result is, that though both the priests and the people have the Bible in their hands, they do not read it. Would you read a book if you were persuaded that you cannot understand a single word by yourself? Would you be such fools as to waste your time reading a book which you were persuaded you could not understand a single line of? Then, my friends, this is the truth about the Church of Rome. They have a great number of Bibles. You will find Bibles on the tables of the priests and of Catholic laymen, but among ten thousand priests there are not two who read the Bible from the beginning to the end and pay any attention to it. They read a few pages here and there; that is all.
In the Church of Rome the Bible is a sealed book, but it was not so with me. I found it precious to my heart when I was a little boy, and when I became a priest of Rome I read it to make me a strong man, and to make me able to argue for the Church.
My great object was to confound the Protestant ministers of America. I got a copy of the “Holy Fathers,” and I studied it day and night with the Holy Scriptures, in order to prepare myself for the great battle I wanted to fight against the Protestants. I made this study in order to strengthen my faith in the Roman Catholic Church.
But, blessed be God! every time I read the Bible there was a mysterious voice(1) saying to me, “Do you not see that in the Church of Rome you do not follow the teachings of the Word of God, but only the traditions of men?” In the silent hours of the night, when I heard that voice, I wept and cried, but it was repeated with the strength of thunder. I wanted to live and die in the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and I prayed to God to silence the voice, but I heard it yet still louder. When I was reading His Word He was trying(2) to break my fetters, but I would not have any fetters broken. He came to me with His saving light, but I would not have it.
I have no bad feeling against Roman Catholic priests. Some of you may think I have. You are mistaken. Sometimes I weep for them because I know that the poor men – just as I did – are fighting against the Lord, and that they are miserable as I was miserable then. If I relate to you one of the struggles of which I speak, you will understand what it is to be a Roman Catholic priest, and you will pray for them.
(Rest at Link)
The dishonesty of anti-Catholics seems to know no bounds:
You wrote:
“This concession of yours is at the core of the whole monstrous error to begin with, as to even claim that there are scales is to say that salvation is not by grace, but by a measurement of your good vs evil works.”
No. The prayers of others can only be about grace. The intercession of Mary can only be about grace. And, as I already noted, and which you completely ignored, the text clearly says the following:
“all the blessed in heaven rejoice in the communion of the faithful because the Blessed Sacrament is a memorial of the passion and death of Jesus Christ, AND THAT BY MEANS OF IT MEN SHARE IN ITS FRUITS AND WORK OUT THEIR SALVATION.”
Thus, Christ’s death on the cross saves. That means grace. Your whole line of deception has been shown to be a lie yet again.
“Most ordinary people, I’m afraid, can recognize silly superstition when they see it.”
And the Jews and Gentiles mocked Christians for believing in things such as the Incarnation, Resurrection, Jesus’ miracles, etc.
“Notice how you’re incapable of making a single coherent argument from the Bible.”
No, because you avoided the verses I posted in post 21 for instance. Typical.
“Your barking cannot fool me into believing that you know what you’re talking about.”
Apparently you can’t deal with the verses posted to you. You will continue to fail.
Again no sources — or are these merely your opinions?
I’ve seen responsive readings that were printed out or included in hymnals. Can’t recall ever getting a handout of the passage(s) being read from the pulpit though. Will have to think on that but so far can’t recall any.
Really? What churches were those?
Though I was not raised 'in church' at all, upon occasion I would end up in a church here or there, and there would always be bibles, and hymnals of course, in the wooden rack commonly built into the backside of the pews. Being in the "bible belt" as it was called back then may have helped. Then again, most folks brought their own. I've seen many old worn ones, and a few recently organized with colored tabs.
It wasn't until I was nearly middle aged that bibles began to get scarcer in the seat backs...pretty much wherever I would go. Still, there would most always be some available. I'll keep my eyes open in the near future, for I may be doing a bit of visiting. Just a little while back I visited a "high church" Anglican congregation. There were a few bibles in the pew seatbacks. They had an "Our Lady of Walsingham-like icon, with a seated Mary (holding a baby Jesus) and having her right foot on a frog. I can't remember the chpt.& verse, but I'm under the impression it is from the book Revelation that the "frog" enters into the picture...Mary being ascended and all, and above serpents now --- just some frog voices to be put down (or so I'm guessing as to addition of the frog) But Jesus is still a baby, so the mix of imagery sort-of jars me a bit.
I've otherwise frequently heard a mention "if anyone doesn't have a bible we can get you one" sort of thing, in more than one church. Part of the reason bibles have become a bit scarcer than they once were (seeming ubiquitous to me, normally in the backs of the old-fashioned pews) could be the changes away from RKJ to ASB and similar, and even NIV for some congregations? I have seen more than once, piles both large and small of old, black bound KJ bibles. But then I've also been in more than a few "low church" setting which had been on the receiving end of others' discards, too.
Think Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal -- along with many non-denominational churches, you name it. I'd bet the ones calling themselves "Bible Church" would have had bibles available, and still do. There is one not too far away. I may pop in just to look.
Just down the street (at a Methodist Church which has been there a bit longer than I've been alive) one can show up bare handed for a bible study --- there are plenty enough extras.
The older part of the church has been given over to a Hispanic congregation. Language differences... That building used to be open 24/7, unlocked, and anyone could just walk in. Back in those days scarcely anyone would vandalize a church. Not anymore...sadly enough. People miss out on being able to walk into a quiet church and just sit quietly, pray, or what have you.
There were bibles in the backs of the pews. Hard wooden pews. No cushions to get stinky (when that happens --- a guy can hardly give the things away, lol)
I've been wanting to wander in that one old Methodist church and see if I could recognize or determine if the pews are the same there as they were 45 years ago. It is possible...those things were built like tanks.
“Chiniquy is not to be believed and rejected by Catholics because he was ex-communicated from the Catholic religion for being a ‘schismatic’,,,exposing the lies of the Catholic religion...”
No, Chiniquy is not to be believed because he was untrustworthy as even some Protestants admitted in his own day. To me it is much like the case of Maria Monk. I can see where stupid, poorly educated, generally ignorant Protestants could be suckered by her bizarre claims - after all they were too ignorant to know any better. But after Maria Monk’s daughter published a work exposing her mother as a fraud and chose to become a Catholic herself, how could anyone believe in her mother’s fraud???
http://jloughnan.tripod.com/chiniquyp.htm
No. He was disciplined for what he did, not for what he felt. No one would have know what he felt.
I agree - but they had no New Testament for decades. Thus, how, if someone implies you can’t manage a religious service without a Bible, then how did the Apostles do it without a Bible? All you’re telling us is that they relied on the TRADITION passed down to them by Christ. So much for sola scriptura. Thanks for the assist!
Perhaps that's because we're encouraged to read, meditate upon, and pray over the scripture readings before Mass, at least in my parish. As Boatbums rightly noted in post #16, it's important to HEAR the gospel too. Our pastor wanted us to LISTEN to what God was saying to us during Mass.
I just didn’t see bibles in the Catholic churches at all.
You might not see them in mine either (apart from those who bring them and the book of the Gospels during the opening procession and Gospel reading) unless you know where to look. I can think of several places to grab one before Mass if I want one, but if you just walked in and were unfamiliar with the place you'd likely not know where to get one.
I started getting people posting to me that the bibles were furnished by the church, which I hadn’t seen either and which appears to have been false information.
Perhaps it isn't false information at all. There may be missals (containing scriptures used in that day's Mass) in the pews and full scriptures (Bibles) outside of the sanctuary where anyone who wants to borrow one for Mass is free to do so.
The Protestant churches I had been in were full of bibles, the people carried them in, not having a bible in hand would have been unusual.
I used to do that too, in part because it wasn't known ahead of time what text the minister would be preaching on. Mass readings are easy to find out ahead of time and many Catholics do their readings before church instead of in church. Peace be with you.
“No. The prayers of others can only be about grace.”
What does this have to do with a scale up in heaven weighing your bad and good works against each other? As to the Rosary, if one must receives “grace” as a “reward” for wearing or repeating a rosary, it certainly is not grace, because grace, by definition, is the free gift of God on an undeserving sinner. It cannot be earned. It is simply mercy, given by the sovereign King. Nor can there be any grace at all without the blood of Jesus, by which case all our bad works are cleansed immediately simply through faith, which itself is the gift of God. To say that there is a “scale” up in heaven at all, weighing your bad works with your good works to begin with, is a denial of the finished work of Christ on the cross.
“Thus, Christ’s death on the cross saves.”
But yet, it did not save, according to your Saint. It was the intercession of Mary that saved because of the Rosary. If it was Christ that saved, then it would conclude with Christ simply saying “thy sins are forgiven thee,” in response to his faith, as we see so often in the Gospels. A rosary, as you admitted before, is a “merit” that one receives which earns some sort of grace in return.
“And the Jews and Gentiles mocked Christians for believing in things such as the Incarnation, Resurrection, Jesus’ miracles, etc.”
It’s sad to see you compare such things with the scripture. I’d say it’s close to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, comparing the true miracles of God with people vomiting up flowers and getting to heaven on the basis of how many rosaries they say in a day.
“No, because you avoided the verses I posted in post 21 for instance. Typical.”
What’s typical is that you seem to be making some kind of an argument, but you won’t tell me what your point is, or what you are hoping to prove, or how you hope to prove it.
I suspect that you can’t.
Just about any denomination you can think of. Maybe it's a regional thing in my area. I'm talking about Bibles in the pews. I'm sure if I asked before services if I could borrow one that someone would find me one. The same would be true if you asked for a Bible in my parish. Someone would get you one.
Just down the street (at a Methodist Church which has been there a bit longer than I've been alive) one can show up bare handed for a bible study --- there are plenty enough extras.
The same would be true in my parish. There are Bibles in classrooms, the chapel, the library, and other places. I was referring to Bibles in the pews, which seemed to be what Ansel was talking about. Other than responsive readings in the hymnal, I honestly cannot recall scriptures being provided in any form (handout, full Bible, etc) in the pews in any protestant churches I've been in. I have no doubt there were many Bibles in other places around those churches. That wasn't the issue though, at least as I understood it. Peace be with you.
For not the Church, we might all be unfortunate Muslims.
As a former Roman Catholic, I also can testify that amongst the Catholics there is very little scriptural knowledge or emphasis on the Bible at all. The little bit of scripture you hear in mass is usually out of context, or disjointed, and too little to be of any real value. If one wants to actually understand the mind of the author, to absorb what he is saying, then you must read through the whole thing on your own, paying careful attention to details. Hearing the Bible read aloud to you cannot replace a proper biblical study, which requires much reading and patience.
These are skills I did not learn as a Papist, since no one taught it, though I did learn them as a Christian later on. And not because anyone taught me, but only because it became natural for me, at that point, to hunger for what was written.
It is not an experience that one can compare to anything in Catholicism. It is a dry, dead place, but where I am now, it’s very much alive.
Did I not ask you on another thread to stop pinging me? In the absence of an IGNORE button I simply scroll past your comments without reading.
I don’t even remember you! And I’ll probably forget in the future.
Man, what a waste of a post, it didn’t say anything on point.
LOL. Didn't fit the narrative you wanted to present about Catholics very well, did it? LOL.
Not really bored, just tired of reading the same old anti-Catholic bigotry over and over and over.
“We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all.”
~ Martin Luther
Why was my post explaining the truth about this apostate removed?
Your post 44 along with a few others were removed because they mentioned Chick which is banned on this forum. The one posted to me and my reply (46 and 48) were not removed because they deal with Religion Forum guidelines.
“What does this have to do with a scale up in heaven weighing your bad and good works against each other?”
Did you NOT read the passage? “whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.”
It’s amazing how quickly Protestant anti-Catholics resort to intellectual dishonesty. Remember, “together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example.”
“It was the intercession of Mary that saved because of the Rosary.”
Grace. Mary interceded with her Son for a grace for the king.
“It’s sad to see you compare such things with the scripture.”
No, what is sad is how you apparently can’t even deal with the verses I posted.
“I suspect that you can’t.”
Your suspicions are irrelevant. My suspicions were confirmed a long time ago - and that’s why I won’t see a post from you dealing with the verses I posted.
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