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Joel Osteen and In-N-Out Are our hearts changed by something within us or by Someone outside us?
The Aquila Report ^ | July 22, 2013 | Marc5solas

Posted on 07/22/2013 6:38:29 AM PDT by Gamecock

If you’ve never had the pleasure of eating an In-N-Out Burger, you are missing out on one of the little, artery clogging,  pleasures of life.

As for the name, it’s about as basic and simple as you could get.  You come in, get your burger, and go out.  Fast, easy, and well.. tasty.

Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment.  You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers.  Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right?

Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?

Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked?  You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.

Before you think I unfairly listed Osteen as “christian” (in quotes), let’s watch his latest appearance on Oprah’s “Lifeclass.”

Did you catch the quote?

“You’ll never rise any higher than you see yourself.” – Joel Osteen

Hmm.  So, how high I rise (externally/out) is based upon me (internal/in) and how I see myself (internal/in).

So the answer to the external is from within.. how I view myself, and as he states later, what words I speak about myself.

You’ve got to see this … Joel Osteen’s view, his teaching in the role of “Pastor” is that the external is determined by the internal (You, your view, your mindset, and your words).

Sounds good, and boy, does it sell.  Oprah has built a multi-billion dollar media empire. Joel Osteen “Pastors” the largest church in the United States, it’s also helped sell books like “The Secret” and spin up careers of Oprah’s other Lifeclass speakers.  But what does scripture say?  Is THIS the message of Christianity, that the internal controls the external?  That it’s IN that controls OUT?

The written word of God, inspired by God the Holy Spirit is clear.. it’s not the SOLUTION that’s in us, it’s the PROBLEM!

(I’m going to intentionally quote a LOT of scripture this week. I want the sheer weight and volume of scripture which speaks to this core issue to blow you away.  While Joel Osteen doesn’t quote a single verse, here is a mere sampling of God’s word on the issue. Read them all now, or later, but they’re here for your reference.)

1. Men are born in sin:

2. As all men have sinned, they are slaves to sin:

3. The heart of sin is UNABLE and UNWILLING to do good. It is, in fact, HOSTILE to God:

So, if we are born in sin, slaves to sin and hostile to God, unable to do good works… is the heart a good place to be looking?

Yes, for those in Christ, He has changed their heart of stone into a heart of flesh.  But.. where does that come from? IN or OUT?

Our righteousness? OUT! It is an external (or what some call “alien”) righteousness. Our only hope in life and death is the external/OUT righteousness of Christ!

“The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without.  This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30:  “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”  In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states:  “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me…..shall never die.”  Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.”  This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant.  Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say:  “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.”  Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32].  Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4].  Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”

- Martin Luther

So, do you see the completely backward message of Joel Osteen? Not only is it not biblical (Did you hear a single mention of Jesus, or a single passage of scripture in his dicussion?) it’s the polar OPPOSITE of biblical Christianity.  And he’s telling unregenerate sinners (who the bible says are slaves to sin and UNABLE to please God) that they are blessed and victorious?  That’s not just incorrect, it’s rank heresy. He’s speaking peace and victory to people who in their unregenerate state are destined for hell.  Smiley face and sweet voice or not.. that’s the cruelest act I can think of a man committing, and to do it while presenting himself as a “Pastor”?  God have mercy!

False teacher much?

So, the takeaway here is this:  Get the In-N-Out right, your only hope is OUT, through the external/alien righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events
KEYWORDS: heresy; osteen; pastors; ybpdln
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To: presently no screen name
"..." And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9"

Well, then that includes everyone who has the Spirit of Christ...not blathering with self-aggrandizing babble.

81 posted on 07/26/2013 7:00:35 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: metmom
"Discernment is also a spiritual gift.

One that the church could use more of."

Definitely.

82 posted on 07/26/2013 7:01:27 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: metmom; Zuriel
Sure speaking in tongues edifies the individual. No denying that.

You can't deny it, it is in Scripture.

Jesus said you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going. But you WILL hear the sound.

Nothing there is saying it's tongues. WOW. That Scripture is specifically talking about the HOLY SPIRIT - the mighty rushing wind! Why don't you recognize IT?

All that shows is that speaking in unknown tongues without an interpreter is a misuse of the gift.

Wrong! First of all, MORE people do NOT USE the 'gifts' GIVEN to them than ever ever 'abuse' them. Just the words 'abusing them' is not of God - as they are designed to SQUASH The Spirit. And a critical spirit will NOT receive from God.

Secondly, the person speaking in tongues does not know if 'the interpreter' FOLLOWING HIM will be obedient. With all the churches you speak of in America, how could not know not everyone obeys but submits themselves to fear? You never heard 'an interpretor' say in the end - 'I knew that but wasn't sure if it was of God' so THEY REMAINED QUIET? They failed as many Christians fail who are too fearful to step out in faith. GOD ALWAYS PROVIDES, man fails in carrying it out.

Churches have more than their share of naysayers and those with critical spirits attending them. If not, the churches would be doing the things Jesus did and greater things they would be doing. So it's obvious who the critics are working for. Even Jesus had to remove Himself from those 'negative' spirits before He could perform 'the works of The Father'. Probably the reason HE did them outside the synagogue. When Jesus started His church, satan slithered itself in with 'religion' and doubters. And while Paul teachings were to set them/us straight, evil remained as it was more hell bent to 'undo' what 'Jesus said and did' and still is as 'his false reign' grows to a close.

The interpreter 'interprets' - he is not a 'translator'.

Even if the interpreter didn't get it right - God ALWAYS honors the faith he USED in speaking it out. Baby Christians - take their steps and fall, it is all OK - it's the faith and obedience in taking those steps that God honors. It's never the falling/mistake that one should consider but the lack of faith to step forward first.

Mature Christians, also, fall but are more willing to admit their falling/mistake and immediately get up and continue. As they have been through it before and more than once. Praise God because they didn't submit to "FEAR OF MAN" - those men who enjoy being critical of others 'steps' and watching for 'abuse' and calling what they don't understand 'weird' and 'chaos'.

To those I say, stay 'in the world' and remain 'normal' and leave those 'not of this world' who are 'in the supernatural'. And when those 'not of this world' are blessed, prosper and are healed - don't say 'those things don't exist' and are not for today. Christians are blessed TO BE a blessing, it is not for themselves. But the more they give out, the more returns to them and they reap a harvest. What you sow, you reap...MORE and LATER.

83 posted on 07/26/2013 8:06:52 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Dutchboy88

The critical spirit mocks the Spirit of God and calls it babble.


84 posted on 07/26/2013 8:09:43 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: metmom

Many discern but leave those who are critical to their own lack.

Jesus discerned and said nothing to them but HE walked away from them because HE KNEW what was in them.


85 posted on 07/26/2013 8:16:49 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
That Scripture is specifically talking about the HOLY SPIRIT - the mighty rushing wind! Why don't you recognize IT?

Because that's not what is coming out of people's mouths.

When I hear a mighty rushing wind accompany someone being filled with the Holy Spirit, I will take note and let you know.

Wrong! First of all, MORE people do NOT USE the 'gifts' GIVEN to them than ever ever 'abuse' them. Just the words 'abusing them' is not of God - as they are designed to SQUASH The Spirit. And a critical spirit will NOT receive from God.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Even if the interpreter didn't get it right -

Then it's not the gift of interpretation and the person is a false prophet.

86 posted on 07/26/2013 9:28:53 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name
"The critical spirit mocks the Spirit of God and calls it babble."

Well, you have part of this correct. The critical spirit mocks the Spirit of God...and tempts Him. That is why I am speaking about the drivel, the foolishness, the error you call "tongues", not the Spirit. The death, burial, resurrection of the Savior is not enough for the fool...they need a sign.

87 posted on 07/26/2013 9:40:14 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Lord, keep me out of the Pentecostal cults!!! lol

Been down this road with someone before too.


88 posted on 07/26/2013 2:21:36 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

And In-n-Out burgers suck!!! Take that stuff back to California and the pits of hell FROM whence it came and give me a BIG OLE TEXAS WHATABURGER!

Can I get an Amen, Brothers and Sisters?


89 posted on 07/26/2013 2:26:06 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: Dutchboy88; presently no screen name; metmom

**The death, burial, resurrection of the Savior is not enough for the fool...they need a sign.**

A sign? You mean the kind spoken of by non other than.....

John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst NOT tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.”

“He that believeth in me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of living water.” (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

So....here’s a human anatomy/biological fact that I’m sure you’re aware of. Our diaphragm is instrumental in our ability to generate the air movement required to speak.

I’m sure you agree that Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the day of Pentecost. Once he stopped, the listeners (hearts were pricked with conviction), spoke up, saying: “Men and brethern, what shall we do?” Acts 2:37

Did Peter respond with, “Accept the Lord as your personal saviour.” ?? Or...did he think of them as ‘fools’ because they were looking for something they must do, AFTER being preached to of the death, buriel, and resurrection?

No, he told them, “Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Acts 2:38

Now, I feel confident that you two (Dutchboy88 and metmom) believe in repentance, and that there is indeed a gift of the Holy Ghost. In the middle of that verse is an instruction that I pose to you in a question:

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION of SINS.......is it from heaven,....or of men?


90 posted on 07/26/2013 7:34:13 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel

It’s the Holy Spirit.

What’s that got to do with speaking in tongues and seeking after something we are commanded to not seek after?


91 posted on 07/27/2013 2:02:06 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Dutchboy88
they need a sign.

I NEEDED a SAVIOR and I have ONE. So stop speaking dribble about 'need' when it is GOD who GIVES the GIFT of tongues and HE SAYS it is a sign. Not being able to even get that right, you should be concerned. IMO, People who have a NEED to twist what is written are showing a sign they have a NEED for attention.

Seems your problem is with others being obedient.

92 posted on 07/27/2013 6:39:41 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: metmom
Because that's not what is coming out of people's mouths.

Then what is coming out of their mouths?

Then it's not the gift of interpretation and the person is a false prophet.

By 'right' I meant giving the 'complete' message'. One day a young man gave one sentence as interpretation and I knew there was more (but didn't know what it was). As soon as he stopped talking, the pastor completed it while the young man kept shaking his head. Then he told the pastor, that's what I was going to say but wasn't sure if that, too, was from The Lord or himself so he stopped talking. God is so merciful to those with a 'right heart', He had the pastor give the rest of it. The man left so encouraged and pleased that he took that leap of faith as he knew he was growing in his faith and his 'baby' days were fading in the background. So he was not a false prophet because he didn't get it 'right'. He had a pastor who helped him. God, the pastor and him all working together. It is what a family does.

Christians grow or at least they should and are on very different levels in their walk. If any Christian is in the same place as they were last year, they aren't growing. We are to become more like Jesus and that takes growing and growing in faith. And like a family, the 'younger ones' in the faith are helped by the more mature ones. It works.

28 But if there is no one to interpret,

That is God's perfect will for someone to be there and interpret. That's His instructions on what to do if one isn't there/doesn't show up or speak up. And instructions are good if an event like that occurs. I have not come across this, have you? However, I haven't come across much of where one person speaks out solo where God gives a message and needs an interpreter. Maybe 2 or 3x. Our pastor comes well prepared and will stop or shift gears if a message is laid on his heart. And that happens many times.

And what an interpreter says should bear witness to those who are spirit filled in the congregation. So a false interpretation would not stand very long in a spirit filled church.

93 posted on 07/27/2013 6:50:38 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
Then what is coming out of their mouths?

Not the sound of a mighty, rushing wind, for sure.

94 posted on 07/27/2013 6:53:56 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Zuriel
This is a rather puzzling post, my FRiend. Your question is non sequitor.

First... "John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst NOT tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.”

Only means that you will not be able to know where the Spirit comes from or where He is going. You will not be able to tell upon whom He might adopt, or who He might leave in his sins and trespasses.

“He that believeth in me, as the scripture hath said, out of his BELLY shall flow rivers of living water.” (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39"

This only means that out of the believer will flow living water, not that there will be a babbling (pun intended) brook full of nothing, meaningless words. That is nothing but fleshly lust.

If you have been concerned that we (at least metmom and I) do not believe that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit, then you have not read our posts very carefully. The Pentecostal error which we condemn is the attempt to remanufacture the gift of the Holy Spirit into the self-generated, fleshly experience Pentecostals wrongly calls "tongues". If they would have read the Book, they would find out clearly that tongues is something quite different.

There is no question that the Holy Spirit is a gift from God. But, "...the gift of the Holy Spirit" is the Spirit Himself, not some labbilanglia vabaaallleemn[asooije apdsojfsllsda mapojoie fmfpoej ahdosopjsh asadhoisdoisklsdlf/ lkasdflkjfsdfusfdl. Is that clear?

95 posted on 07/29/2013 7:30:15 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

Sorry for the big delay, but as a OTR trucker, I am sometimes away for days (have no laptop, and have not upgraded to a smart phone).

**This is a rather puzzling post, my FRiend. Your question is non sequitor.**

The title of the thread concerns conversion: “Joel Osteen and In-N-Out Are our hearts changed by something within us or by Someone outside us?,”

Acts 2:38 is conversion commands to the unsaved. So my question is inline with the thread, and you are quite inline to answer it.

Your interpretation of John 3:8......
**Only means that you will not be able to know where the Spirit comes from or where He is going. You will not be able to tell upon whom He might adopt, or who He might leave in his sins and trespasses.**
.....deals with unknown aspects, but doesn’t touch on the known: Jesus said that, just as you HEAR the wind, you will hear when someone is born of the Spirit, yet wonder how it happens.

Of John 7:38,39........
**This only means that out of the believer will flow living water, not that there will be a babbling (pun intended) brook full of nothing, meaningless words. That is nothing but fleshly lust.**

Are most tongues known languages? The detailed conversions in Acts seem to make that clear. Yet, the conversions were evidently more than just words in a variey of tongues, for in Acts chap 2, some thought (even with these souls praising God in understandable languages) that they were drunk. Peter didn’t deny the appearance of drunken behavior; he just clarified it as not being ‘drunk as ye suppose’. So I’m not going to mock someone that receives the Spirit in like fashion.

Paul addresses the unknown tongues, and does NOT condemn them. He just says that there is a right (and a wrong) place for them. He says that that person ‘speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God, howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries’.

Are there fakers......absolutely! The most positive proof being a soul that is unwilling to WALK in the Spirit; or obey His Word.

**labbilanglia vabaaallleemn[asooije apdsojfsllsda mapojoie fmfpoej ahdosopjsh asadhoisdoisklsdlf/ lkasdflkjfsdfusfdl.**

Is that Russian?....LOL

I used to make fun of the ‘tongue talkers’. It wasn’t long after I said ‘tongues are of the devil’, that my world really took a tumble. Though not as extreme as Paul’s blinding knockdown, it was quite humbling (physically and financially).


96 posted on 08/02/2013 7:30:15 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel
"Jesus said that, just as you HEAR the wind, you will hear when someone is born of the Spirit, yet wonder how it happens."

Absolutely untrue. You have mangled this to prove your own misconception. He did not mean that you can hear someone being born again.

"...for in Acts chap 2, some thought (even with these souls praising God in understandable languages) that they were drunk."

Yes, of course they were real languages. But, go read the story. There were over 17 out-of-area districts represented at Pentecost celebration. When Bob hears Tom's message, it sounded crazy drunk. Especially coming from one who had never been to Tom's city. So, the crowd hears 17+ languages telling the message of rescue by the Messiah. Don't rewrite the story to make it fit your predjudice.

97 posted on 08/03/2013 6:03:20 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

**Absolutely untrue. You have mangled this to prove your own misconception. He did not mean that you can hear someone being born again.**

That is your interpretation. I mangle? No, but you delete. You make his claim of not knowing the source of the sound, to be a source with no sound. Yet, in the three DETAILED accounts in Acts of Holy Ghost infilling, the tongues were present.

**Bob hears Tom’s message, it sounded crazy drunk.**

I listen to the radio when trucking, but don’t listen to ‘Bob and Tom’. They’re pretty rank imo. Seriously, you think these folks didn’t know the effects of new wine, and how someone behaves when under it’s influence? Acts 2:15, Peter said, “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, SEEING that it is the THIRD hour of the day”. (9 am)

**So, the crowd hears 17+ languages telling the message of rescue by the Messiah.**
**Don’t rewrite the story**

They heard them speak of ‘the wonderful works of God’. The saving message was preached by Peter. He identified the Messiah, and told them what they MUST do (Acts 2:38).


98 posted on 08/03/2013 9:22:49 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel
"They heard them speak of ‘the wonderful works of God’."

How could the crowd hear the, "the wonderful works of God" if they were as yet unsaved and had not been given the Spirit? Notice, they heard "them", not "him". The unsaved crowd wandered over to hear their own dialects. In your paradigm, the lost should be in your assemblies interpreting the babbling for the saved.

99 posted on 08/05/2013 8:10:19 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

**Notice, they heard “them”, not “him”.**

First of all, the ‘mutitude’ consisted of Jews from other nations, that knew at LEAST two languages (obviously, they already knew Hebrew).

Let’s round off the 17 languages to 20.
120 in the upper room. An average of 5 speaking a native language known to a segment of the ‘multitude’. Even though Jerusalem was crowded for the feast, and 3,000 were converted that day, let’s throw out a conservative number that came in to witness the initial outpouring, say 1,000.

So, an average 50 pilgrims (they) heard 5 converts (them) speaking in their native tongue.

The multitude shared with each other (in Hebrew) their amazement of the scene. No interpretations needed.

Even more amazing and may have even been the case: each of the 120 spoke a sentence or more of EACH language. “..every man heard them speak in his own language”. Acts 2:6
Once again, no interpretations needed.


100 posted on 08/05/2013 7:32:15 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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