Posted on 07/22/2013 6:38:29 AM PDT by Gamecock
If you’ve never had the pleasure of eating an In-N-Out Burger, you are missing out on one of the little, artery clogging, pleasures of life.
As for the name, it’s about as basic and simple as you could get. You come in, get your burger, and go out. Fast, easy, and well.. tasty.
Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment. You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers. Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right?
Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?
Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked? You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.
Before you think I unfairly listed Osteen as “christian” (in quotes), let’s watch his latest appearance on Oprah’s “Lifeclass.”
Did you catch the quote?
“You’ll never rise any higher than you see yourself.” – Joel Osteen
Hmm. So, how high I rise (externally/out) is based upon me (internal/in) and how I see myself (internal/in).
So the answer to the external is from within.. how I view myself, and as he states later, what words I speak about myself.
You’ve got to see this … Joel Osteen’s view, his teaching in the role of “Pastor” is that the external is determined by the internal (You, your view, your mindset, and your words).
Sounds good, and boy, does it sell. Oprah has built a multi-billion dollar media empire. Joel Osteen “Pastors” the largest church in the United States, it’s also helped sell books like “The Secret” and spin up careers of Oprah’s other Lifeclass speakers. But what does scripture say? Is THIS the message of Christianity, that the internal controls the external? That it’s IN that controls OUT?
The written word of God, inspired by God the Holy Spirit is clear.. it’s not the SOLUTION that’s in us, it’s the PROBLEM!
(I’m going to intentionally quote a LOT of scripture this week. I want the sheer weight and volume of scripture which speaks to this core issue to blow you away. While Joel Osteen doesn’t quote a single verse, here is a mere sampling of God’s word on the issue. Read them all now, or later, but they’re here for your reference.)
1. Men are born in sin:
2. As all men have sinned, they are slaves to sin:
3. The heart of sin is UNABLE and UNWILLING to do good. It is, in fact, HOSTILE to God:
So, if we are born in sin, slaves to sin and hostile to God, unable to do good works… is the heart a good place to be looking?
Yes, for those in Christ, He has changed their heart of stone into a heart of flesh. But.. where does that come from? IN or OUT?
Our righteousness? OUT! It is an external (or what some call “alien”) righteousness. Our only hope in life and death is the external/OUT righteousness of Christ!
“The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me…..shall never die.” Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant. Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say: “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.” Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32]. Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4]. Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”
- Martin Luther
So, do you see the completely backward message of Joel Osteen? Not only is it not biblical (Did you hear a single mention of Jesus, or a single passage of scripture in his dicussion?) it’s the polar OPPOSITE of biblical Christianity. And he’s telling unregenerate sinners (who the bible says are slaves to sin and UNABLE to please God) that they are blessed and victorious? That’s not just incorrect, it’s rank heresy. He’s speaking peace and victory to people who in their unregenerate state are destined for hell. Smiley face and sweet voice or not.. that’s the cruelest act I can think of a man committing, and to do it while presenting himself as a “Pastor”? God have mercy!
False teacher much?
So, the takeaway here is this: Get the In-N-Out right, your only hope is OUT, through the external/alien righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins.
What part of receiving what God gives, do you see chasing in?
And what part of obedience, do you object to? I'm sure you would agree Paul knows more than you and we are to learn from God's Word. If Paul spoke in tongues and wants us to do it - I, then, see it as important in my Christian walk. However, it's your privilege to balk at it if you feel the need.
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy"
Funny how I don't hear about people chasing after the gifts listed in Romans 12, prophecy, teaching, exhortation, service, leading, mercy, etc....
More chasing. Who taught you that we are to chase after Gifts? He GIVES to each one differently. God knows BEST ALL the time.
I said:
Here’s Paul showing his approval of unknown tongues from God; given for the individual’s edification.
You said:
The gifts are NOT for the edification of the individual. They are for the edification of the church.
Paul said:
“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue EDIFIETH himself...” 1 Cor. 14:4. Paul had just acknowledged unknown tongues being spoken, not to men, but unto God. Does he scoff at such an individual? No, he says: “.. howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries”.
Your opinion is that such a one is an ‘experience junkie’.
Paul said:
“But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and LET him speak to himself, AND TO GOD”. 14:28. It is plain that Paul didn’t scoff at such an one.
Your opinion is that such a one is an ‘experience junkie’.
**People in the church who claim that tongues are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit are wrong.**
How did Peter know that the household of Cornelius had received the Holy Ghost: “And they of the circumcision which believed were ASTONISHED, as many as came with Peter, because on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. FOR THEY HEARD them speak with tongues, and magnify God..” Acts 10:45,46. And Peter testified back in Jerusalem: “..the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US at the beginning”. 11:15
Jesus said you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going. But you WILL hear the sound. That sounds pretty certain to me. And that it would be so for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.
**No, everyone is after the experience of speaking in tongues, even to the point of telling people to makes sounds to loosen up and have the gift come on them.**
Make no mistake, I agree that there are people looking for ‘loaves and fishes’, but not dedication to God.
I will tell people that are seeking an experience to just praise God, think on Him, and think of nothing else. Talking out loud shouldn’t be discouraged, but far be it from me to tell someone how to pour their soul out to God (think Hannah, 1 Sam.1:13).
I DO thank you for your reply!
You've yet to tell us what language 'these groups' speak and what the chaos is about. Most Christians are happy, you could be interpretation their happiness for chaos, I don't know. Why be critical, just don't attend them - they aren't for you.
And yet, here we have in America, people in churches in droves seeking tongues.
WHAT? What kind of churches do you go to in America? It's almost a non event in any church I've been in.
Calling it *evidence* is calling a rose by any other name.
You can dispute God's Word all you want but I'll take HIM at His Word, He knows BEST and it's true for me and those I know. Your experiences don't define what is Truth.
No. Because we know how to discern God's Word.
1 Corinthians 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
I haven't attending a church that wasn't in order.
Tongues. The overwhelming majority is seeking after that and encouraging others to seek after that.
The Spirit gives them INDIVIDUALLY as HE wills.
1 Corinthians 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
How about letting God be God and letting HIM decide what is best for each individual believer to have for a spiritual gift? Our only seeking should be to determine what gift it is which God has imparted to us, not to seek the showy gifts for a sign.
But it still is true that the gifts are for the edification of the body, as taught in Scripture. All that shows is that speaking in unknown tongues without an interpreter is a misuse of the gift.
Jesus said you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going. But you WILL hear the sound. That sounds pretty certain to me. And that it would be so for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.
Nothing there is saying it's tongues.
I sure hope you're not really saying that if someone doesn't speak in tongues, they are not saved because that's how your comment can be read.
Chaos is when everyone in church is told to *worship in the Spirit* and everyone starts speaking out loud at the same time in tongues, all the while the *worship team* is playing their instruments *in the Spirit* which means that it would sound better if they were merely tuning them up.
It's a cacophony, IOW, chaotic.
WHAT? What kind of churches do you go to in America? It's almost a non event in any church I've been in.
When at the end of a service, people are told that if they want to be filled with the Spirit, that they can come up for prayer and the first thing asked is if they've spoken in tongues, something is out of line. And when someone is being prayed over for 20 minutes or more for the filling and haven't spoken in *tongues* yet, they aren't let go.
I know people who have faked it just to be let go.
The Spirit gives them INDIVIDUALLY as HE wills.
I just said that in my previous post to you. And here it is.. Who taught you that we are to chase after Gifts? He GIVES to each one differently. God knows BEST ALL the time.
How about letting God be God and letting HIM decide what is best for each individual believer to have for a spiritual gift? Our only seeking should be to determine what gift it is which God has imparted to us, not to seek the showy gifts for a sign.
How about you read my posts first OR did you learn something from my posts and now repeating what I said back to me? You kept saying SEEKING and I corrected you with God GIVES according to HIS WILL and purpose.
Gee, and you speak of chaos!
Then they are wrong in not being honest. Seems that have a 'fear of man' that they need to deal with. I don't know how anyone can fake it but since honesty is an issue with them to begin with, they can do anything while serving no purpose in doing it.
Chaos is when everyone in church is told to *worship in the Spirit* and everyone starts speaking out loud at the same time in tongues, all the while the *worship team* is playing their instruments *in the Spirit* which means that it would sound better if they were merely tuning them up.
I have no idea what you mean about the instruments. But the part of coming together as a congregation to worship God in tongues is NOT chaos. If it is to you, IMO, it's best for you and best for them if you go some else.
Remember, we don't have to speak in tongues, we get to speak in tongues. All I've seen is one's Christian walk grow by leaps and bounds. It's not for one who wants to stay status quo.
We’re going to get you a course in reading for Christmas.
Excellent remarks all. Thank you for your clear and biblical rebuttals to the self-made religion being peddled around here.
Think I’ll ever get an answer to the question at the end of my post?
No, not directly. But, an answer has already been delivered between the lines. As you have aptly noted, the Charismatic/Pentecostal view places so much emphasis upon personal experience that it ignores the real Gospel. It likens the promise of the Gospel to a drug trip, appealing primarily to the flesh, and calls this "power". It does not realize forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus purchasing our reconciliation to God, is really the story. But, keep up the great work.
I know of a Pentecostal type who says that they are not interested in certain conferences because it’s all about love. That person claims they have moved on and now are interested in the *power* conferences.
That person also claims to listen to music which is designed to bring out the prophetic and that person’s spouse has a real issue with the music, cannot stand to listen to it.
Interestingly, I consider the spouse a far more godly individual and highly respect that person’s opinion so put a great deal of stock in it. I fear for the person who is on this power trip. They are totally missing the boat.
Your sniffer is working well. Those who lust for the power do not realize they are just following in Simon the Sorcerer’s footsteps. He, of course, wanted to be able to wield some visible, exotic, and exciting experience to sell and get rich. Oral Roberts had a gold phone in the bathroom of his mansion and typifies the hunger of most Charismatics/Pentecostals.
‘We’? You and your imaginary friends?
I don’t accept gifts in exchange for my help but not to worry, I can ‘read’ you just fine.
It is evident you have not gotten any gifts. We shall see at the end of time who got this right...and who ended up in a Pentecostal cult.
Discernment is also a spiritual gift.
One that the church could use more of.
Gift of Salvation, gift of tongues, gift of discernment, gift of faith, gift of prophesy, etc, etc, etc.
We shall see at the end of time who got this right.
WOW, I guess satan got to you, something he'd say -'wait until the end.'
Meanwhile 'born again Spirit filled Christians' are already living the eternal life now as they are 'in Christ'.
..." And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Romans 8:9
HEAR and OBEY.
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