German bishops get tough on Catholics who opt out of church tax

Reuters ^ | 9/21/2012 | Tom Heneghan

[Dr. Thorne]

PARIS (Reuters)- Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.

Alarmed by a wave of dissenting Catholics quitting the faith, the bishops issued a decree on Thursday declaring such defection "a serious lapse" and listed a wide range of church activities from which they must be excluded.

[D-fendr]

This article, from the website of the Evangelical Church of Germany, indicates that it does not perform baptism, communion and burial or allow godparenthood for those who leave the church tax rolls in Germany. I think it would be safe to say the same is true for marriage and social services.

Re-entry offices as a pastoral service provided by the Evangelical Church

"Some years ago, there were only very few of them available: special "re-entry offices", where people could apply to rejoin the Church… Re-entry offices are set up by the respective heads of a regional church or recognised by them. From a legal point of view, re-entry in any of the re-entry offices takes effect in the community of residence of the person concerned…

"Quite often, an external occasion is what triggers the wish to re-enter the Church: the baptism of a child; the wish to become a godparent or the wish to be given a church burial later…

[D-fendr]

Some basic info on the EKD cited above:

The Evangelical Church in Germany (German: Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, abbreviated EKD) is a federation of 22 Lutheran, Unified (Prussian Union) and Reformed (Calvinist) Protestant regional church bodies in Germany.

In 2008, the EKD had a membership of 24.515 million parishioners or 29.9 percent of the German population.

[D-fendr]

Another article, in full, from the EKD:

More church taxes for the EKD
Many have left the Church in East Germany

In spite of the negative forecasts, the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) received more church taxes last year. The latest EKD statistics published in Hanover show that in 1995, a total of 8,382 million marks flowed in, 1.8 per cent more than in the previous year. The West German regional churches even increased their takings by 2.3 per cent over 1994, while the five regional churches in East Germany recorded 5.9 per cent less church tax.

The reduction in membership of the EKD continues, according to the latest statistics. At the end of 1994, a total of 28.2 million Protestants belonged to the 24 regional churches. The reduction was less noticeable in the West German churches than in those of East Germany.

[D-fendr]

Finally, more background from Wiki. Long excerpt, but I think it gives more context and background:

“The church tax is only paid by members of the respective church. People who are not members of a church tax-collecting denomination do not have to pay it. Members of a religious community under public law may formally declare their wish to leave the community to state (not religious) authorities. With such a declaration, the obligation to pay church taxes ends. Some communities refuse to administer marriages and burials of (former) members who had declared to leave it.

“The money flow of state and churches is distinct at all levels of the procedures. The church tax is not meant to be a way for the state to directly support churches, but since expenses for church tax are fully deductible (as are voluntary expenses for the Church, for charity or a bundle of other privileged aims) in fact such support occurs on a somewhat large scale. The effort of collecting itself, done by the State, is entirely paid for by the Churches with a part of the tax income.

“The church tax is historically rooted in the pre-Christian Germanic custom where the chief of the tribe was directly responsible for the maintenance of priests and religious cults. During the Christianization of Western Europe, this custom was adopted by the Christian churches (Arian and Catholic) in the concept of “Eigenkirchen” (churches owned by the landlord) which stood in strong contrast to the central church organization of the Roman Catholic Church. Despite the resulting medieval conflict between emperor and pope, the concept of church maintenance by the ruler remained the accepted custom in most Western European countries.

“In Reformation times, the local princes in Germany became officially heads of the church in Protestant areas and were legally responsible for the maintenance of churches. Not until the 19th century were the finances of churches and state regulated to a point where the churches became financially independent. At this point the church tax was introduced to replace the state benefits the churches had obtained previously.”

[Hodar]

But the bishops are more than willing to accommodate the faithful who have nothing to give. It is an issue of those deliberately refusing to support the Church as a matter of principle, as opposed to some kind of membership fee.

It's a slippery-slope (I think we may agree here), my church has a very strong commandment on what we call "Priestcraft" (selling of sacriments for money or services). Among my faith, this is perhaps one of the major sins - up there alongside murder.

We believe that Christ commanded us, to give 10% of our PROFITS (not total earnings - profits) to his church. Those who do not, have broken a commandment and will be held accountable for this lapse. Our church leaders may ASK a petitioner if they have tithed 10% of their profits (if you have debts, do you have a profit?; if you are scaping by, do you have a profit? - IMHO, nope). But, under no condition does money play any part in your worthiness to receive a sacriment.

[Cronos]

hi ansel —> the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Schaumburg-Lippe and the Pomeranian Evangelical Church

[Cronos]

I think we agree on the basic point that it’s not good for the govt to be collecting money for the churchs — whether catholic or protestant

[Lx]

...either the Church take the money this way, or it needs to get and share the tax details of its congregants.

I don't understand this sentence. Do you mean that if the Church doesn't get the tax, levied, I believe, by the state, then it needs to provide the equivalent of our 1040? Provide to who? The state already has it, that's where I'm confused.

My Protestant Church survives on tithe. It's also NOT in a beautiful 500 year old stone cathedral that must need massive upkeep.

If they were getting my tax money, I'd sure like to see where they're spending that money.

As I said before, it's nice to have a beautiful Church costing millions, but then they also ask for tithe to the poor? Put the Church in a warehouse and donate the tithe the Church didn't need.

[Cronos]

My Protestant Church survives on tithe

As did my old Catholic Church in Delaware and my Catholic Churches here in Poland

We're talking about Germany only -- where all Churches -- Catholic or Protestant get church tax collected by the state

[Lx]

I realize that as I said upthread. They mentioned the last time I was in Germany. They didn't seem to upset about it, I didn't hear any grumbles.

I'm talking about the sentence below.

...either the Church take the money this way, or it needs to get and share the tax details of its congregants.

I don't understand this sentence. Do you mean that if the Church doesn't get the tax, levied, I believe, by the state, then it needs to provide the equivalent of our 1040? Provide to who? The state already has it, that's where I'm confused.

So, you're in Poland, are you Polish or an American ex-pat? How is your country coming along economic wise? Do you know if I'd need a Visa to get into Poland?

I don't mean to drag up things from the past and I also know the Poles were NOT in on it, but have you ever visited Auschwitz?

Oh yeah, who has control over Gdansk/Danzig? Thank you,

[Cronos]

It's also NOT in a beautiful 500 year old stone cathedral that must need massive upkeep.

well, quite frankly, most of the churches in the US are not 500 years old. The German ones are

however, the same could be said about churches in the rest of Europe and they either get state aid or fend for themselves.

i think it's better for them to fend for themselves rather than have the govt get them

And, you know, the upkeep isn't that much if one is sensible about it -- the problem is getting govt involved in collecting church tax for catholic and protestant churches

[Cronos]

Hi -- I'm not really sure about those details. It's more like for those who want to claim tax off for their tithing.

I'm an ex-pat, well, for now. My wife is Polish and after trying out living stateside and the UK, she missed polski food too much, so we've settled down here permanently :)

Poland seems to be doing quite well economically -- growth is good, but remember that this is not a rich country like Germany or the US -- but this is better than Germany in my opinion as people are more relaxed and not so stiff :)

you won't need a visa to come visit Poland for a holiday, but you'll need one to stay longer and/or work.

auschwitz is a place where you can feel death hanging in the air. Strangely enough in the ghetto area in Warsaw you don't feel this

Gdansk is completely Polish now. At the end of WWII, Poland was physically pushed east - it lost much of it's eastern territories to what is now Belarus and Western Ukraine and part to Lithuania. This was all then the USSR

Poland was moved to the west, to the Oder-Neisse line defined by the Oder and Neisse rivers. The formerly German cities of Stettin and Breslau became Szczecin and Wrocław.

Poles, Germans, Belarussians and Ukrainians are reconciled with these changes

As a result of this massive moving around, Poles were kicked out of Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine and Germans were kicked out of Poland. Note -- not all Germans in Poland were bad, many were Polish patriots, having lived in Poland for centuries.

[Lx]

Sounds like an interesting place. Did you find work easily and if I may be so bold, could you tell me the generic details of the job you have such as IT guy, engineer, nothing specific.

What about Prussia, are they Polish cities now? I know one of the big sticking points for Hitler was the corridor to Prussia and the open city of Gdansk. These were actually points Hitler had that were valid.

I've been to Mauthausen in Austria and even though it wasn't a full fledged death camp, my wife couldn't get out of the showers quick enough while I was wondering why there were airlock seals on the shower doors (duh!!). It was very solemn.

Thank you for your answers. I always find it fascinating when I see how far and wide Free Republic goes and to speak with people who have other news sources than what we get.

What is the mood in Poland to:

1) U.S.A?

2) Obama?

Have a great day, or night I guess???

[D-fendr]

I don’t have time right now to go look it up and be precise, but the jist of it is:

One option is the state collects and passes through to the taxpayer’s church. Of course the state has the taxable income info.

Another option is that the church collects it and in that case can/does sometimes ask and get from the state the income information on the congregant.

There are also other options.

As to the “share the tax details” part, I’m not sure. I have a couple of faint recollections but nothing firm enough to pass on here.

[Cronos]

hi. I'm an IT guy -- datawarehousing. So, jobs are relatively easy to get even with passable POlish. For most others you need good POlish. I'm getting there, but not quite

[Cronos]

There is no Prussia, not since 1945. The history of Prussia is interesting -- the name comes from the Prussian peoples - a Baltic people related to present day Latvians and Lithuanians

They were pagans until the 13th century.

Konrad of Mazovia, a prince of one state in Poland called in the Teutonic Knights to help deal with these pagans in 1230 AD

UNfortunately the Teutonic knights had other ideas -- they stayed and colonised.

They then took over the entire northern part of Polish territory and ruled, even fighting against the POles.

Then in 1389 the Lithuanians converted to Christianity with their king marrying a POlish princess-heir apparent (who was the daughter of an Angevin (French) king of hungary) -- Jadwiga.

So the raison-d'etre of the TEutonic knights ended with the Baltics converting. But they stayed on, fighting. So the Poles, Lithuanians and Ruthenians (ancestors of present day Ukrainians and Belarussians) got together and defeated the Teutonic knights at the battle of Grunwald (Tannenberg in German) in 1410. This was later portrayed as a great clash between slavs and germans, but in reality the Teutonic knights had many other nationalities who came to fight

Prussia was then under the thumb of the Polish kings until the 1500s

In the 1500s, the head of the Teutonic order converted to Lutheranism (he was a Hohenzollern, a member of the same Germanic house that ruled Brandenburg and then became the family of the Kaisers) and got the right to call himself King (no other German prince could do that -- he could because Prussia was technically not in the Holy Roman Empire). he could do this because his uncle was the King of Poland. to make matters more complicated, his uncle was Swedish -- a reason later for the 1600s war between Sweden and Poland when the Swedish king tried to forcibly convert the Poles from Catholicism

ok, then came Frederic the Great in the 1700s who came up with a plan to dismember Poland.

Poland after Jan Sobieski III (the guy who saved Vienna in the siege of Vienna 1683) had too much democracy. The Kings were elected by the nobility and normally they could not agree on anything -- the parliament had a rule that either something was passed unanimously or it was not passed at all. Net result, nothing moved. The Russians played their influence and got Saxon kings installed as kings of Poland. These were weak kings, under the thumb of the Tsars -- which is strange considering that only a hundred years earlier, in 1612 the Poles had conquered Moscow

Ok, so at the end of the 1700s, Frederic the great decided to make his plan work -- he got the Russians and Austrians to agree to partition Poland

So from 1770 to 1793 Poland was partitioned 3 times -- the first by Prussia, Austria and Russia, the second by Prussia and Russia only and the last time by all three again

the last was in 1791 when the Polish King created a far reaching constitution granting modern-day rights etc. -- the autocratic Prussians and Russians couldn't allow this

So, Poland disappeared and the northern part was made "Prussia"

After 1945, the Germans were kicked out completely by the Russians and Poles and what was Prussia is now Pomorze and Mazuria -- Polish lands

There is no dispute over Gdansk or other places any more

Hitler's points were not valid -- while Gdansk was mixed German-Polish, it was a free city, allowing both nationalities to stay.

[Cronos]

The Poles like the USA and what it stands for, but this enthusiasm has been dying since 2008 and Obama's repeated snubs ("Polish death camps").

There is also further disquiet over the confirmation that FDR sold out the Poles to the Soviets at Yalta

They never forget that they stood alone, the only occupied nation that never surrendered to the Nazis and who fought for the Brits at the battle of Britain (the squadron with the highest number of kills was the Polish squadron -- 303, or the Kosciuszki Squadron) and fought at Monte Cassino, at Tobruk etc. fighting for the allies, yet they were sold out by Churchill and FDR

not only were they sold out, in 1945 on V-E day, the British forbade the Poles from marching in the allied victory parade -- every other nation was represented, but the Poles were not allowed.

now there is a reasonable reluctance to trust any of their western allies from coming to save them

[Lx]

Awesome history, Thank you.

Hitler's points were not valid -- while Gdansk was mixed German-Polish, it was a free city, allowing both nationalities to stay.

Didn't Germany lose Gdansk via the Versailles treaty? That was his beef, he was determined (and he did) tear up the Versailles treaty piece by piece. Even though it was an open city. Hitler regarded the Poles as an inferior race (who wasn't according to Hitler?)

So he used that, the 'supposed' atrocities committed by Poles in the corridor. Made up in whole cloth by Goebil's propaganda machine. Then, in 'operation canned goods', they made concentration camp detainees dress in Polish uniforms, attacked a radio station and then the SS offed the supposed Polish soldiers.

The worse part was while England, France and Italy were perfectly willing to give Hitler what he wanted, they drew the line in the sand at Poland. Now, exactly how were any of those countries going to help Poland? All they had to do was look at a map. Hitler knew this but his idiot foreign minister, Ribbentrop assured him that England wouldn't fight. Great call Ribbentrop, at least he was reincarnated as Hillary Clinton.

[Lx]

not only were they sold out, in 1945 on V-E day, the British forbade the Poles from marching in the allied victory parade -- every other nation was represented, but the Poles were not allowed.

I don't understand this, Poland was the reason for the war and the allied powers had an agreement with Poland.

Maybe, he couldn't stand to face the Poles because he knew what was coming with Stalin?

Poland has gone through hell it seems. It's nice to see them back in free nation status.

[dfwgator]

While Hitler considered all Slavs as untermenschen, why were the Poles singled out? Hitler treated the Czechs and Slovaks and Croats much better.

It’s because Hitler knew Poles would fight. Hitler used other Slavs as guards in the Death Camps but no Poles.....the reason, if a German gave a Pole a rifle they knew the Pole would immediately use it on the German.

Hitler had hoped to make a deal with Pilsudski, a man he respected, and knowing Pilsudski’s hatred of the Russians hoped to bring him into the fold. Had Pilsudski survived to 1939, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened. One interesting note is that when the Nazis invaded Poland, Hitler ordered an honor guard at Pilsudski’s grave.